I absolutely agree that you should show your work in the best possible light, but some of us have lights that shine brighter than others!

You're not having any of my lollies no matter what you say!

It is not so much what I say, as what I am going to do - be afraid....

Ve heff vays of meking you surrender.

quote:

Originally posted by Frankie Rage:
But showing your work in the best possible light is always worth it I believe. Well, I've learnt that the hard way I reckon...

It is a bit of a problem area this one...for the purposes of the 'ready to broadcast' ethos in user generated programming (what 4Radio is doing and homegrown tv etc) it is a good thing to get it as professional as possible.

However, for traditional programming it needs to be good enough to be impressive, but it also needs to give a producer/director the scope to do something with it (make it their own). If it's already the finished product, why would they want to work on it?

If it's funny enough, I don't think the production quality matters a jot. It's the laughs that are the lasting impression we should be aiming for.

quote:

Originally posted by jimjamstew:

quote:

Originally posted by Frankie Rage:
But showing your work in the best possible light is always worth it I believe. Well, I've learnt that the hard way I reckon...

It is a bit of a problem area this one...for the purposes of the 'ready to broadcast' ethos in user generated programming (what 4Radio is doing and homegrown tv etc) it is a good thing to get it as professional as possible.

However, for traditional programming it needs to be good enough to be impressive, but it also needs to give a producer/director the scope to do something with it (make it their own). If it's already the finished product, why would they want to work on it?

If it's funny enough, I don't think the production quality matters a jot. It's the laughs that are the lasting impression we should be aiming for.

To answer your (possibly rhetorical!) question, the reason they would want to work on it would be because they think it would be a success for them. I think the idea that they wouldn't want it because it's finished is plain wrong. If it is a finished product or near to being a finished product then they would in fact welcome that (and probably take some of the credit for it, even indirectly!)

I am not wanting to disagree with you mate, I am saying that as well as "...it's the laughs that are the lasting impression we should be aiming for..." we should ALSO make the 'demo' as good as we can.

And beyond that, we could publish ourselves as they do in the Indy Music market. There are a lot of Internet Radio Stations now and if 4Radio aren't interested in our stuff, then maybe somebody else will be? Especially if it is (almost) a finished product!

Just my thoughts... I guess we'll all do our own thing anyway!

F

4radio seems to be expanding and these sort of the competitions might come back again anyway... I got an email from them saying they are applying for 10 more stations so you never know.

By the way 4laughs put me forward for a DJ job! I need a job!

quote:

Originally posted by Frankie Rage:

To answer your (possibly rhetorical!) question, the reason they would want to work on it would be because they think it would be a success for them. I think the idea that they wouldn't want it because it's finished is plain wrong. If it is a finished product or near to being a finished product then they would in fact welcome that (and probably take some of the credit for it, even indirectly!)

I am not wanting to disagree with you mate, I am saying that as well as "...it's the laughs that are the lasting impression we should be aiming for..." we should ALSO make the 'demo' as good as we can.

And beyond that, we could publish ourselves as they do in the Indy Music market. There are a lot of Internet Radio Stations now and if 4Radio aren't interested in our stuff, then maybe somebody else will be? Especially if it is (almost) a finished product!

Just my thoughts... I guess we'll all do our own thing anyway!

F

Hi Frankie,

I wasn't being rhetorical, I was just quoting from experience.

In pitching meetings with Producers and Directors, IF you are lucky enough to get one who actually has any experience of comedy or knows anything about comedy (I'm not joking!), you then have the 'why would I want to do this project?' to overcome with them.

They want to stamp their identity on the project too. They have something they want to 'bring to the party' and if you leave no room for it, you will get a "We like it, but we can't use it right now" or a "It's very nice, but not what we're looking for". By all means, it should be of good quality, but it doesn't need to be broadcast standard. Plus, you should WANT to reshoot it with a better budget and equipment.

As I said earlier, for user lead programming (and as you say, the music industry), it IS important to do it as well as you can - other than judicious editing, it will mostly get left as it is for public consumption.

I was just pointing out that, depending on where you were wanting to pitch your stuff, there is a difference on how it can be presented - you don't need to be perfect in either case, just funny.

I take your points on board, as you are speaking from experience.

But I doubt if they would turn something really good away, not if they thought it would be a success! Unless they already had too much success on their hands of course, in which case why would they be listening to a pitch?

But I think we are in a circular discussion at cross-purposes here!

My main issue and the reason why I'm posting and labouring the point (wrt to the JM's project) is that I don't want us just (the JM's) to end up with a pile of scripts and some amateurish demos.

If we produce our audio and video work to the highest standard we can then at least we'll get an audience somewhere AND I believe we will be MORE LIKELY to impress commercial Directors/Producers.

I don't think just being funny IS enough, there are loads of funny people and funny scripts. I think presentation is in fact very important indeed if you want to stand out amongst the crowd of hopefuls. It shows if nothing else that you are serious about your work and mean business (it is a business after all)

If you don't agree, then fair enough... like I said, we'll all go our own way anyway...

I'm just trying to influence the JM's to up the ante on production values!

Been watching this debate with interest. It is complex, and I agree with differing points from both sides.

Where I agree with Frankie:

Taking the script out of the equation (let's assume it's a side-splitter) poor editing, poor sound / lighting / and performance will certainly take attention from the laughs. You're not going to laugh easily if you're struggling to hear what's being said.

On the other hand, excellent presentation usually becomes 'invisible' to the end-user / viewer. We tend to notice bad work far more, the good work tends to registers subconsciously, sometimes not at all.

If two teams were given the identical scripts to shoot: the team making the medium transparent to the viewer / listener will increase the impact of that material. We've had a few examples discussed recently on this forum, plus the Office is a good example of a script that failed to impress until a pilot was made.

Making the medium transparent also states that the producer (us lot) is serious enough to find out how to present work more effectively. Marshall Mcluhan said famously, "the medium is the message." In this instance, the message given by our output is multi-layered. At face value it is the humorous content. Deeper is the underlying image or brand you are projecting. Deeper again, the intent and professional ethos you want to project.

While none of us have access to broadcast quality equipment, technology is cheap enough for us to give it a creditable shot.

While I can't speak from JimJam's experienced standpoint, I'd find it hard to believe that any producer would feel intimidated by the production quality of material they recieve, to reject it.

So to deliberately choose not to 'raise the bar' or to simply produce acceptable work rather than your absolute best is to undersell your potential and, more importantly, your message. I'm only talking production values / techniques here.

But I agree totally with JimJam that producers do want input and to stamp their own brand into your product. Without them, we'll fail to make the step up into the real biz. If it means compromise (which it does) then it's a necessary evil. At this stage in our careers, we need the platform more than the control over our output.

While I agree that output doesn't have to be broadcast standard; it is not a let-out clause to stop striving for continual self-improvement of production values, nor to stop short of producing broadcast standard output - if you have the equipment.

Thanks for an interesting debate, JJ and Frankie. It made me think.

Thanks for the perspective mate!

I think the bottom line is that JimJamStew, Slagg Brothers & JunkMales (and many others on here) are ALL trying to produce something worthwhile and move forward in this business if we can and whilst we may have some conflicting views or experiences, it wouldn't be real life if we didn't

Fx

It's always worth doing your best - if nothing else, it shows you have standards.

Regarding Producers turning something of quality away...they do it all the time (in TV, Film, Music (Beatles anyone?) etc)...what's frustrating is that we assume they know what they're talking about, however, in a particular script meeting (writing for a disney channel kids show) the new producer that came on board got a right royal politically correct bee in her bonnet about us using the word 'Woggle' in a skit revolving about Boy Scouts...she "wasn't comfortable with the word" and wanted it taking out. We asked why and she felt that it was confusing and wondered if the kids might 'misinterpret' what we were talking about. We explained that it was a part of their uniform and that, apart from anything else, it is a funny sounding word. She asked that unless we were "100% sure it was an everyday scouting term" she wanted it scrapping. We assured her of this, only to receive the final shooting script a week later to see that the word had been cut (along with the comedy).

We didn't stay around much longer - and a few months later the programme was dropped...she is still working in kids tv!

I'm not precious about my writing, but she made me feel like I was beating my head off a wall.

I suppose "Producer = Boss" and the old (and so true) adage often applies:

I may not always be right, but I'm always the boss!

spot on!

Totally agree.

It's the nature of creativity that it attracts those that couldn't conceive the original idea but who believe they can improve upon it.



We are all in the same boat in that respect, until we reach a point where we can self-produce.

I've been producing it myself for quite some time... !

I've got to be honest though, I am non too impressed by the so-called professionals giving advice on this site in the Blogs and so forth...

For example, one said it would be a good idea to find a Producer who likes your work...

...that surprised me somewhat as I was thinking that a producer who doesn't like your work would be more likely to offer you a job?

doh silly Frankie...

I don't think any of our guest editors or bloggers have actually revealed very much about the true nature of the beast - what do you think?

F

quote:

Originally posted by Frankie Rage:
I don't think any of our guest editors or bloggers have actually revealed very much about the true nature of the beast - what do you think?

Well... I mentioned over in one of the other threads (one that has since been deleted) that I'd been particularly inspired by Jo Neary's Blog musings... And how live performance is a key route into the industry, as many of the Comedy Commissioners and Executives attend the clubs and theatres regularly - but only in London/Edinburgh... That was certainly an interesting morsel that gave me much to ponder...

Also, in the past, I'd only ever attempted to submit my material to agents and production companies, but Graham Duff's suggestion to approach producers first, and get them on side, was another piece of advice I was grateful to hear... Stamps of approval from anyone with clout seem to count for a lot when looking for backing on a project... So that may also be something worth looking into...

I think the site is functioning very much like a 'workshop' now, or creative seminar, of sorts - with these Blog entries from established professionals being very much the weekly lectures, as it were... Which we get to enjoy from the comfort of our computer chairs... I'm liking them, so far...

If you cut Seth G in half...you can find 4Laughs written all the way through him! heh heh

But he's right about the live performance stuff...however, getting them to come to shows is really difficult, unless you are on a bill with a name, or you are up for an award. It's difficult but not impossible...you just gotta keep plugging away...and hope you get one!

4Laughs have access to producers...maybe they could give away any spare ones that are just lying around as a prize!

quote:

Originally posted by jimjamstew:
If you cut Seth G in half...you can find 4Laughs written all the way through him! heh heh

I bleed ink, too - it's quite the party trick...

I used to love those platignum cartridges and cartridge pens when I was a kid, made me feel like James Bond!

...didn't take much to amuse us in those days!