What an ace load of advice - thank you so much everyone, it is incredibly helpful and is helping to keep things clearer for me.

The thing is, I do want the house, but not at any cost. However nice it is, the fact still remains it's next to the railway line and has no parking. Now this *is* reflected in the price - to give you an idea, there is a 3 bedroomed semi up the road on the market for 249K. I've not been inside but suspect whilst it may be sligtly bigger, there's not a fat lot of difference - except the 39K difference in price. And that's the key for me, and it all comes down to my original question.

The location is important to me, and if I want to live in this location I can a) buy this house at close on its price due to location or b) buy a flat. That's it - I cannot afford a house there. I don't want to live in a flat and therefore will have to move out into the less preferred (but cheaper and still nice enough) location). So to me, it's worth more money than I bid today, but not more than I could comfortably afford to repay, which would be top whack 200.

I think what I will do is ring them tomorrow and speak to the woman who spoke to them to establish excactly how close to 200 they want. Depending on what she says, will make an increased offer (not decided how much yet) and go from there. If it ends up hitting 200 and still being rejected, I will walk away.

Right. That's it then. Sh11111t!!

SAH - meant to say - what a result!! You are slowly but surely getting there...

Did you think about looking in the local paper for removal firms or on the council website - ours has an "approved traders" type thing on there - that may yield another one or two?

Sounds like the ex-wife's had the rocket up the backside she thoroughly deserves!

quote:

Originally posted by Laura NB:
I think what I will do is ring them tomorrow and speak to the woman who spoke to them to establish excactly how close to 200 they want. Depending on what she says, will make an increased offer (not decided how much yet) and go from there.

No, don't. Leave it towards the end of the week. By doing it tomorrow you're basically showing them that that's the only place you've got your eye on, and you don't want them to think that (even though it's true). You would also appear far too keen which from the agent's point of view means that they can easily squeeze a load more cash out of you.

As I mentioned earlier (and Mike's picked up on it too), if you're planning on upping your offer you need to do it in realistic increments. Jumping from £189,400 to £197k will instantly say to them that you can afford £200k+ and you don't want that because they'll turn down your £197k and wait for your final offer. Putting another offer in at £192,500 is sensible because it will show the vendor that if they want to get shut before the summer then £195k is all they're gonna get, which is what you'll offer them as a final offer a good few days after they turn down your £192,500 one!

Presumably neither of the Sunday viewers have put in offers then?? If they were going to, then I imagine they would have done so today, therefore you're the only one in the running for it, which is good.

I'd leave it while late Wednesday or Thursday morning then offer £192,500. Leave them thinking about it over the weekend then assuming they turn it down, offer £195k on Tuesday next week.

Rob

Right - further update.

Just rung the agent who spoke to them and asked her what figure they were looking for. She said absolute minimum 200K.

Told her I needed to do some sums but needed to know if I was wasting my time putting in any offer that wasn't 200K. She said a very definite "yes". In a way, that doesn't surprise me, but I'm therefore in a bit of a dilemma and don't really know the form - in these circumstances it would seem to be a bit of a waste of time offering anything else - what do you think, and when should I do it?

Asked her how the people at the weekend got on and she said that there were no other offers on the table. Quel surprise.

Alos, doesn't stamp duty go up at 200K - if so, how much by? I assume that by offering 199,995 I would be ok?

Hi Laura, stamp duty goes up to 3% on purchases over £250K, so you'll be OK...

Durrr, so it is!! What am I thinking of then, I'm sure my solicitor said something increases at 200K - maybe fees of some sort?

Anyway - get this. Have just had another call from the agent. She apologised if she seemed abrupt in the call and said I must think her very rude, but she had someone waiting to see her so was a bit rushed (!).

She said that the vendors *were* looking for over 200K but that at the end of the day, the house is worth what someone will pay - the figure they put on it is just the marketing price. She asked me if I could go higher - I said I could because I had a budget to replace the bathroom but that I doubted I could get to 200. Said I would need to speak with my financial advisor as well.

She suggested that I come back to them if I did want to make another offer, tell them it was my best and final and that she would speak to the vendors to try and explain why they needed to seriously consider it. She said it was hardly like people were beating down a path to view it and mine was the only offer - what a turn up!

So of course now I'm wondering what to go in at - my mate says 195 then 198, I said surely I would have to give them my top whack after the conversation we've just had, he said he reckoned 200 means they want 195. Hmmm, not sure. What say you?

And of course now, I'm wondering if I *should* buy it as nobody else wants it!! I don't think I should worry too much, as I intend to be there for a very long time and also, it's always sold before so I don't think I should focus too much on that.

They will get what they're given - whether by you or someone else... but if they hold out for too much, they'll get nothing!

I'd go for £195K, best and final and really point out all your strengths as THEIR buyer (see my previous post). And if they turn it down now, say it remains open until you find something else - then ask the agent if they've anything else on their books you should be looking at. (If they have ANYTHING at all suitable make an appointment to view).

Laura - this is just my personal point of view, but after the conversation you had with the agent, I would now put in your final offer - whatever you intend that to be. I wouldn't muck about with, well this is my next offer, ooh no I just found another couple of £K. Just be straightforward. Decide what your final offer is, make it clear to the agent this IS your final offer, there will be no more forthcoming, and put the ball in their court. As long as it is a reasonable offer they would be crazy to turn it down as they aren't exactly beating off buyers with a stick.

Trying to second guess 'what the vendors really want' is a fruitless game, there is no way of knowing. Decide what you are happy with. At the end of the day worrying about £3K on a house you are intending to live in for a decade isn't worth the stress (unless you enjoy the game playing - which I don't). By the time you come to sell it, £3K will be small potatoes.

I agree, I don't think there's any point faffing around with a couple of grand here and there, and I don't want to lose credibility as a buyer either.

Will probably call them later this week and offer close on the 200, hopefully this will sort it once and for all. Like you say, the game playing is not fun - sure it's nice to think you can get something cheaper (especially when it's so expensive) but longer-term I just don't see the point.

Also, they are nice people and I don't want them to feel "forced" to sell to me and then end up with bad feeling or anything else further down the line.

quote:

Originally posted by englishriviera:
They will get what they're given - whether by you or someone else... but if they hold out for too much, they'll get nothing!

I'd go for £195K, best and final and really point out all your strengths as THEIR buyer (see my previous post). And if they turn it down now, say it remains open until you find something else - then ask the agent if they've anything else on their books you should be looking at. (If they have ANYTHING at all suitable make an appointment to view).

That's a very good idea, ER. The agent will then pass this info onto the vendor. "She's started looking at other properties now..." The vendors should snap your hand off! I know I would!

quote:

Originally posted by Laura NB:
I agree, I don't think there's any point faffing around with a couple of grand here and there, and I don't want to lose credibility as a buyer either.

Will probably call them later this week and offer close on the 200, hopefully this will sort it once and for all. Like you say, the game playing is not fun - sure it's nice to think you can get something cheaper (especially when it's so expensive) but longer-term I just don't see the point.

Also, they are nice people and I don't want them to feel "forced" to sell to me and then end up with bad feeling or anything else further down the line.

*Shakes head* You've fallen straight into the classic buyer's trap head first.

If you've got money to throw away like that then why don't you just offer them what they want, because that's basically what you'll be doing.

If you go from £189,400 straight to £195k (or higher) now, your offer will be turned down again despite your protestations that it's your final final final offer because everyone knows you make two offers then a final one and that's exactly what they'll be waiting for you to do. If you really want the place then you'll end up £200k for it AT LEAST, when if you'd played your cards right and done as others have wisely advised you would have pocketed £5k.

You couldn't be in a better position right now. The agent's confirmed that you're the only one interested and therefore you hold the trump card. They KNOW that YOU are their only hope so keep your cards tight against your chest and offer £192,500 and let them turn you down. What have you got to lose? Nothing. Let some time go by - a week is good - and then offer them £195k as your final offer and make it clear that that is your absolute limit.

If you offer them £195k for it now you'll end up paying £200k to get it, believe me.

By the way, get the "they're nice people" thoughts out of your head. There are NO friends in business. Please don't be so naive to believe that.

R

Snooze Control, I agree 100%.

Laura, leave it to the end of the week and try £192500.

Snooze Control maybe you have fallen into the classic "professional buyer's" trap, of thinking that everyone who sells a house thinks like you. They don't - I certainly don't.

Most people sell a house very rarely, maybe two or three times in their entire lifetime, and they don't know all this stuff about - first, second and final offers. They want (or possibly need) a minimum of X amount and it matters not whether you offer this on your first or 8th offer. Making two unrealisic offers and then a final one is just delaying tactics if you end up at the same point in the end.

And Laura wouldn't be 'pocketing' £5K, she would just have a very slightly larger mortgage payment each month (how much would it be on £5K?)

Incidentally all my vendors have been nice people - and two of them are now friends.

Hi Laura
I've been following this like a soap opera! In my experience the first offer is always refused (people always start low). The second is always considered, sometimes accepted but sometimes leads to negotitiations of we won't accept that but will accept X amount.
I'd keep your offers well below £200k and then wait for the Estate agent to contact you. I always play cool and it has always worked for me.

quote:

Originally posted by velvet:And Laura wouldn't be 'pocketing' £5K, she would just have a very slightly larger mortgage payment each month (how much would it be on £5K?)

Well again, not all of us have got £5k to be wasting like you clearly have. Add your interest on to that over 25 years and it'll be more like £10k. That £10k will buy you a nice conservatory/new car/luxury holiday. All for what? Playing it cool and sitting back for a week or so? Seems like a no-brainer to me, sorry.

Rob

Well when I bought mine I kept upping it in increments of £500 until they said yes. I think we agreed on my 6th time.

But see, I could easily have walked away and waited until I found another, I was never 'in love' and was in rented accommodation that I could leave whenever I wished with a month's notice.

quote:

Originally posted by velvet:
I don't think you can 'subtract' money for stuff like wanting to remove the woodchip Mike. It isn't necessary, the vendors have been happy to live with it, it is just a personal choice thing.

Its called modernisation not personal choice. I would even go as far as saying necessary. Whether you take it off and put wallpaper up or have it skimmed and painted is irrelevant. Youre trapped in eighties decor world if you believe woodchip is anyting other than 'unacceptable'. Fair enough Laura may be able to live with it for the time being but whether it comes to resell or personal choice it WILL have to be removed.

It is a buyers market now, and however uncomfortable Laura may be at taking advantage, all the facts add up to giving her buying power.

7 months on market, no other offers on table, not fully modernised, parking issues, railway issues, etc

Most properties sell 5 percent under marketing/asking price. Which puts us just under 200k. This is when there are barely any issues to bargain with.

Where the popularity of 3 offers comes from i dont know(well actually i do), and offering in increments of 500 til they say yes is madness, you may as well ask them how much they want and write them a cheque.

Only the last few years have buyers started trying to get a bargain as houses dont fly off the shelves on day one and increase in value by 10 percent 6 months later anymore.

Laura, i can clearly tell you dont want to mess them around which is why i think you are going to offer 198k which is just over a 5 percent discount. So theres a few of us here who have reccomended that route and a few others who like the idea of a second offer before a final one. I will give you a different way of thinking for you to consider:-

This may take a bit of effort. If you cant get the room sizes of this house and another 3 bed house nearby that you were talking about then skip this paragraph. This is different to a method some others use, but still calculating price in relation to space. Take the reception rooms, kitchen, bathroom, utility, cloak and any other space such as breakfast room, conservatory etc and ignore halls, corridors etc(they wont have measureed them anyway.) Calculate the square footage. For example, Living room 15ft x 18ft = 270ft2. Add them all up, so youll have a figure around 900-1100ft2 give or take a few hundred ft2. Find the nearest 3 bed house with parking, no noise etc and do the same. For agruments sake say railway house is 1000ft2 and other house is 1100ft2, an extra space of 100ft2. Now say NO NOISE is worth 15k and PARKING is worth 15k. Im blatently guessing here but here goes. £210,000 DIVIDE 1000ft2 = 210. So railway house costs £210 per square foot. Add £30K for parking and quietness and we get £240,000. Same calculation and we get £240 per square foot. If the other house is £239,000 then it costs £217 per square foot. So £240 is more expensive than £217 making railway house more expensive in the imaginery example. Now the slightly complicated bit. To get the same value for money assume railway house is £217ft2, so 217 MULTIPLY 1000ft2 = £217,000 which is the price railway house would be if it has NO NOISE and PARKING. Take away the £30K for noise and no parking and we arrive at £187,000, strangely close to your first offer. Or £197,000 using £20K as a price for parking and no noise.

What im saying is, if you can find a 3 bed property (that using the above figures and using a bare minumum £25k for no noise and parking) works out better value than railway house then you can explain this to agent.

Assuming you ignore all that, with the recent rate rise, it means most buyers can afford less hence being forced to offer lower than a montha go.

Personally id go 194/195, explaining that with the interest rate rise you cant afford more, (a better value property nearby), modernisation decoration costs, and the property is overvalued in relation to have no parking and noise issues....you can word this however you like or simply give the offer and say its all you can afford.....worst case scenario its turned down and.....

You go back a week later at £198,950 saying youve had to look for another lender and a lower rate, hence being able to up your offer which is definately 100% your final final final last ever, sale must end soon offer. :-)

Thanks everyone. I can see what you all mean by playing it cool, and in lots of ways it makes sense. Of course if I come in lower and hang on and play hard to get they will *probably* let it got for under the 200.

However, that assumes I have the time and the inclination to do that. I don't. I was always going to be prepared to pay 200 for it, although not more than that. Obviously I can get it for less that will be nice, but it would not be unexpected or unreasonable if I couldn't.

Personally, I don't feel comfortable upping it by small increments - what's the point if I know they want 200? Ok, there *may* be a tiny bit of flexibility in that but not loads. Also, they don't have to move until July, so they are not desparate to sell just yet.

I want to behave in a resonable way, and if that means I am "done" out of a couple of grand so be it, but for that, I am gaining an awful lot. The house I want in the area I want, lots of extras in the house (which I am sure will be removed if I drive too hard a bargain, meaning I am no better off anyway).

Rob, it's also important to me that I maintain a good relationship with the vendors, especially given I don't want to exchange until June + don't have a deposit to put down (!). In these situations a little goodwill goes a long way I think. I also have a very stressful job, and quite frankly could do without added hassle when buying a house (this one or any other) so will do it in a way I feel comfortable with.

Will decide on final offer over the next couple of days then call them again.

Sorry Mike, just saw your post. You make some good points, and I like the idea of putting the offer with the reasons for it i.e. if I offer under 200 then saying what you've suggested.

I probably wouldn't make too much of the woodchip, as it's only in 2 rooms from memory, but I think I would probably say in a general sense that I would need to spend money on that, new carpets, retiling bathroom etc. Which isn't unusual anyway is it, especially in an old house?

I also like the idea of the "other lender" thing should I be forced into a corner at any point - will keep that one in mind!

SAH - congratulations on some progress at last! It seems to be moving very fast all of a sudden, you must be so relieved. You'll have to tell us how you get on with the removal men. In fact, would be good to know how much they charge - do you have much to move and are you going far? Fingers crossed that the solicitor gets the lease back on Friday as well

ER - like the suggestion of other houses. In fact, there is one that I was going to look at on the same day as the other but then the vendor pulled from the market to have some work done. Same agents, so may enquire as to whether it's back on the market yet...

quote:

Originally posted by Laura NB:
The house I want in the area I want, lots of extras in the house (which I am sure will be removed if I drive too hard a bargain, meaning I am no better off anyway).

With regard to the "extras" - important this bit, and why I like offers to be in writing - YOU specify these NOW.

If they have a non-built in cooker, dishwasher, washing machine etc that you want, then say in your offer that these are to be included. If things are in the details they are included, if they aren't (curtains and poles, possibly even carpets, white goods, pot plants in the garden etc) then you need to list what you want.

Your solicitor will then check the fixtures and fitting forms when they are received to make sure it tallies. (Though you should too).

If you're offering high (which it sounds like you are), then make sure you list EVERYTHING you want. I've taken this approach before, saying "OK, you win on the money, but in return, here's what I want".

And by the way, you DO have a deposit. The deal will be structured such that it is just not paid (or only partly paid) on Exchange, although if you then pull out before Completion, you would be liable for it. As long as everything goes through smoothly, it will never be a problem. This is a really common situation (where your deposit is tied up in your current house), and not an issue at all.

Oh, and one last thing - people won't hate you for not wanting to spend thousands you don't have to. And they are moving anyway... this is a financial transaction, and whilst it's much easier if you can have a good relationship with your vendor, I have never resented someone for wanting to get the best deal for them, just as I don't expect them to hate me for turning down offers I see as too low!

quote:

Originally posted by Laura NB:
Rob, it's also important to me that I maintain a good relationship with the vendors, especially given I don't want to exchange until June + don't have a deposit to put down (!). In these situations a little goodwill goes a long way I think.

I agree. However, there's a distinct difference between putting a friendly face on a business deal and being friendly because "they're nice people".

I still think they'll cave at £195k with a little bit of pressure on them but if you're not happy with that route then your next best option is to go in at £194k instead of £192,500, leave it a while and offer say £197k as a final one, maybe another £500 if you're feeling in a good mood that day.

You've got to remember just how badly you want this place. You know as well as we do that you'd be prepared to keep upping the price until you get to your max limit of £200k, but you can't keep doing it without a severe risk of them telling you where to get off. I reckon if you go in at £195k or above they'll call your bluff and reject it and then you'll either have to walk away (which you badly don't want to do) or you'll end up in a position where you're gonna have to pay £200k for it.