Jimble - did you know something the rest of us didn't??

My my you forummers have been busy!

As much as I liked David's optimistic and offbeat character, I didn't think too much of some of his ideas...

The absense of central heating for starters. Of course, buyers with a £220k budget want the complete grade II listed experience of freezing to death in winter.

It was a mistake not to finish the garden. Sarah commented on the turf not being laid but I noticed that those garden walls ought to have had a layer or 2 of white paint before inviteing the EAs round: D'oh!

And that shade of baby poo green the house was painted in was hideous. In fact I preferred the pink. Oooh ducky!

Maybe the "in memory of" was their son? I was wondering about that, too.

I got a phone call and missed the bit just after the builder disappeared; was this ever explained? And can any builders on this forum suggest just WHY builders do this? If the job was too much, I'd far rather a builder at least had the courtesy to tell me so rather than just disappear.

Re the central heating: absolute madness. Or at least put proper fireplaces in with flame effect to soften the blow!

I didn't mind the kitchen and thought it quite suited...looks like I'm in a minority of one there!

quote:

Originally posted by tiny tears:

quote:

Oops, the bloke is dead, there was a 'In memory of' at the end

Thought the 'memory of' bit said '1974 - 2004' - think that man was a tad older than 30

And it said "Daniel Thompson" he was "David" - could have been his son!!???

From the spec

quote:

the property has been wired for Economy 7 storage heating which will be installed prior to completion, if required

Wouldn't sway it for me, I'd be expecting central heating in somewhere half that asking price!

Must have been his son then, it was only displayed for a couple of seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by patrick1971:
I didn't mind the kitchen and thought it quite suited...looks like I'm in a minority of one there!

Well I agree with you there Patrick. They excelled with the kitchen imo.

Just to let you all know, Daniel was Davids son who died earlier this year. There was a brief word from him in the first part of the show. I've atually met David, he's a nice bloke really, just a bit 'English Eccentric'.

If there is one term I don't ever want to hear again in one of these programmes it is

"niche market",

said by people who don't seem to understand that it means

"very small market",

which in turn usually means that

"most people won't like it and therefore it will take ages to sell".

Due to their sad loss, I shall refrain from slapping.
But I am still annoyed that yet again people are rescued from their folly by a rising market.

I must admit that I would've done a bit of "slapping" BEFORE the end credits rolled...but now, it seems a bit inappropriate!

I feel so sad for that couple, it's a terrible thing to lose a son or daughter.

It was an interesting programme, many people are unaware of the complications a listed building will throw up at them. With some councils, conservation officers can be quite unhelpful and with others, really supportative.

I don't undersatand why people have to rip into the personality of the people involved. The country would be a sadder place without the cheerful eccentricity of people like that. To be honest, all my friends are of that type. Isn't it better to be witty, cheerful and interesting than be part of the suburban furniture?

Anything but dull. That's what I think.

The project was interesting though.


lee

As far as the project goes:

The builders pretty much took him for a ride. I could only see about 15K in materials (if that) and that would include central heating.

They charged him 13K for joinery alone (not including the roof). There just wasn't that sort of work involved. 4K for the plastering? Did they redo every ceiling? Didn't they charge him about 10k for general 'labouring' (whatever that is)?

It could have been a good project for someone who could do all of the work themselves. At 93K it was a good buy. You could easily have done the work yourself with materials and scaffold hire etc for 20K. That means the whole thing would have cost about £113k, so there was a good profit margin for around 9 months to a years work.Even in a static market it would still have been worthwhile. I rather liked the house myself and I'd have been happy to live in it.

It's in these sorts of properties that the profit lies these days. The amateur punter can't get a loan on them so you are only up against builders and eccentrics. So if you have the 'readies' they are a good bet.

lee

The project was ludicrous:

* make a tiny bathroom even smaller
* turn the lounge into a fitted office
* turn the main bedroom into a lounge
* waste money on some irrelevant and personal like a garden hot tub
* save money on something generic like electrics
* let's make it interesting to the smallest possible market
* let's base all our decisions on instinct rather than knowledge, advice or research

I could go on....

I rather despise self-styled eccentrics. REAL eccentrics don't pander to the crowds and probably - let's be honest - wouldn't be interested in the logical thing of making a quick buck from something they have no knowledge of or experience in.

I ws very interested to hear the woman acknowledge that Sarah Beeny's estimate of the cost was spot on - that rather seems to belie the idea that the buidlers ripped them off.

I certainly wouldn't be happy to live in a housign with no heating but at least it had a proper bathroomn, three bedrooms and conventional light fittings.

She took a guestimate, so what? Anyone can fish a figure out of the air.

How much of that cost was labour?



lee

You don't seem to like Sarak Beeny - fair enough, that's your prerogatvie, but "anyone" can take a figure such as £10,000 or £100,000or £1,000,000. the point is hers was accurate. Either an extraordinarily lucky guess or one based on experience as a successful property developer.

I have to take issue with one throwaway comment of yours.

quote:

You could easily have done the work yourself with materials and scaffold hire etc for 20K.

Exactly what work could they have done themselves? If you are going to make statements like this I think you should qualify them. I think it was fairly obvious in this programme that the couple did not intend to do the work themselves and were not experienced in it. Iw ould love to know what a couple of amateurs could have "easily" done that would have meant they did not not have to pay a builder.

Though wouldn't builders such as yourself be out of a job if it were all so easy????????

quote; The country would be a sadder place without the cheerful eccentricity of people like that. To be honest, all my friends are of that type. Isn't it better to be witty, cheerful and interesting than be part of the suburban furniture end quote


Don't disagree with the above in principle, but when it comes to developing a property for profit, you can't afford to be an eccentric, you need to be absolutely conventional and suburban, or the profit will never materialise. Eccentricity is all very well, but only when improving (or otherwise) your own property, not for resale.

At the end, they hadn't had a single offer, when asking £219K. No surprise there. The lack of central heating would put anyone off. Why would a prospective buyer want to dig up floors and muck up all that nice fresh paintwork to start laying heating pipes, after paying over the odds in the first place? They might not mind if the place wanted doing up anyway, but not when they are paying top price for a so-called finished property.

quote:

Originally posted by beecher:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggsey:

quote:

Originally posted by jimble:
The wife is thinking:

Soon, you'll be dead, you cravat-wearing plonker, and all this will be mine! MUHAHAHAHA

Oops, the bloke is dead, there was a 'In memory of' at the end.

Honestly? I missed that, through stopping watching properly. They really should've told us at the beginning, before we all got torn in

Just to add a little balance to all the comments along this line (not just yours Beecher, but others later).

6 years ago I started property developing with a colleague. He's married and his wife helped us at the beginning. 3 months after buying our first property, and just as the renovation finished my twin brother died. That morning I'd shown our first potential tenant around the property - found out about my brother as I returned home from the viewing and had to leave the final finishes, credit checks blah, blah blah to my business partner and his wife as the guy wanted the house.

The house (obviously) was no longer my priority but what bugged me later was that my BP's wife apparently said that she, "wished she'd been nicer to me", (she'd been - and still is - a b!tch) just because my brother died.

I taped the programme tonight and guess that it was their son that died. Very, very sad.

But, in fairness, the usual slapping handed out by us all was well deserved in terms of property development - and we're all very sad that they've lost a child well before they should have done. So continue those light-hearted slaps - and from what I know of you guys you're sparing a thought for a very sad situation. That balance is just fine from my viewpoint.

Kind regards, and apologies if it appears a bit heavy

quote:

They charged him 13K for joinery alone (not including the roof). There just wasn't that sort of work involved. 4K for the plastering? Did they redo every ceiling? Didn't they charge him about 10k for general 'labouring' (whatever that is)?

Work on listed buildings has to be done to a very high standard, for instance 'lath & plaster' ceilings, which do not come cheap.

I noticed they put in a conservation rooflight, again extra costs that have to be met by law.

He may have had to use an approved contractor experienced in listed buildings, although as he was not receiving a grant probably not.

I too don’t think a diy job for £20k was remotely plausible

Internal walls and ceilings would have to done with lime plaster on new laths, might even have to be riven not sawn, and pre-soaked in lime water; and then there’s the posh three-coat work, maybe even with horse hair, lots of scouring, towelling, constant damping down, polishing and brushing, and it can take a week under damp sacking to set ready for the next coat, months before you can paint the ceiling. Done with proper craft skills, following W. Millar’s book, or even an earlier one. This a different ball game from a trip to the DIY-shed for some plasterboard and skim mix.

Then the internal mouldings and panelling would have to be specially matched to the proper historic patterns, cleared with the CO, and the skirting installed on wooden plugs set between the bricks. Etc. Etc. Again not just some plastic strips banged on with ‘no more nails’.

And so it goes on, the sash windows, the floors, the roof, the structural timbers, etc., consuming almost endless time and money. The last GD showed that quite clearly.

quote:

en·tre·pre·neur ( P ) (ntr-pr-nûr, -nr)
n.
A person who organizes, operates, and assumes the risk for a business venture.

I could not believe this person was a so-called entrepreneur as he demonstrated little business (common) sense throughout last night's show!! For a second it looked like he was serious about the outside loo! (Got to love the Beeny's quip - 'At least it flushes!' )

And whatever happened to the HotTub?

I wish all my customers were like you lot. You believe anything.

If I were the builder and I heard Sarah beeny bandying figures of £80k around - guess what my final bill would be? It would have been the same had she said 70k or 95k. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you saw the program you will have seen that the plasterers used 4 tubs of lime mortar mixed with sand. It was put on in coats but there was no great time interval involved.

And where is the difficulty in putting wooden laths on the ceiling?

I didn't see much in the way of ornate coving, did you? Besides that, it is available 'off the shelf'.

The roof timbers weren't replaced as you can see the old ones when the guy is re-felting and retiling (using the existing sltes) I didn't see any scaffolding.

The first builder replaced the rotten purlin (the timber that supports the rafters agaist sag), but not the rafters themselves.

The only floor joists I saw replaced were the upstairs landing area. (with the Acros under it). But this is a 2-3 day job. You support the joists. Cut of the joist ends and stringer. Replace stringer then replace joists one by one. Remove Acros and add laths and replace floorboards. Replaster. Job done.

They were charged £6400 for decoration. Would you call it a bargain if someone came along and charged you that for decorating your house?

Look at it this way:

Total outlay £77K

Less materials £20k

Total labour charge. £57K

Less labour charge for roof £3K

Less extension £6K

Total for rooms £68k


6 rooms to refurbish.

That's over 10K per room sperate from materials.

If a man spent 4 weeks on each room to cover lath and plaster, 3 sockets, repaint etc, that is £2500 per week labour charge. Does it really take 4 weeks to do the above? I'd be pretty upset if I couldn't do it in half that time. (I only saw them plaster the 2 upstairs bedrooms. rooms.)

Apart from the first floor landing I saw no structural work to speak of.

The bathroom was tiny and was boarded so should have taken about a week. The kitchen was nothing more than a few cabinets screwed to the wall, and they were even preassembled so you are looking at about a day or two installation time.


So where did the money go?

Youu can't say that because it's listed the standard of work has to be higher - do you normally pay for a bodge job?

So unless there was stuff that happened of camera, he was (as I said) taken for a ride by the builders courtesy of the Beenie estimate.

But I doubt you lot will see it. Then again, if you don't work in the industry, just how do you arrive at your conclusions?

lee (working with property 7 days a week)