We have been trying to buy a flat in London for over a year. Last Oct a reasonable one came up and our offer was accepted. The buyer then casually told us it had had subsidence work done 6yrs previously.she also said other things about the running of the freeholds company that were suspect. To cut a long story short, the sales process slowed right down not least because Xmas came in the middle but also because on the advice of our solicitor we insisted on having all the information about the cause, the guarantee and the insurance stuff made available before we would have a survey done. The day before we were due to see our out of town solicitor who had finally collected all the info togther, we got gazumped.The agent told us you just cant hang around like that in the London market, and insisted wed never get anything if we didnt keep to the accepted rule of --offer accepted,then survey and other checks, and then back out if you cant come to agreement with the buyers over what you find out.

Realizing the London market is a lot faster than the provinces wher e I live, when the next flat came up, I decided Id ask more questions before I made the offer. Has this property ever had subsidence to your knowledge? - No . How much is the insurance for your share.--- £4 week (good clue as subsidence demands much heftier premiums)I picked a London solicitor whom I thought might be quicker off the mark.
I instructed surveyors , and asked them how wed go on about the fact that the Victorian semi property in which I was buying the top flat, didnt have side access to the rear without going through the other lower flats and the EA (who also said he knew of no subsidence history)said access via them wasnt an option.The SV's looked at pictures on the EA blurb and said they could see everything they needed to see from the front, and from the roof terrace at the rear, with binoculars . I wasnt very happy, asked the solicitor and he said ideally hed like to see access made available. I went back to the EA and insisted, he obliged, and I got back to the SV's to tell them they now could have access to the back of the house . They were very short about it and said they had made it clear to me that they could see and do everything they wanted to , by the methods they described and they got back to the agent and said the access wastn necessary.
OK, they did the survey and happily , it came back sweet as a nut. Nothing much to comment on at all. That was a huge relief as wed worried all along about buying a flat with subsidence history now the HIPS are coming in and knowing we will be selling in a few years.However, the report was littered with such comments as ' no liability except for the parts we had access too, no responsiblity where ..... and so on as you might expect' The sale progressed without any contact with the SOL for a while . He was aware we had to be out of our present flat on a certain date, but there was no sense of urgency at all.The proposed exchange date came and went. Calls werent returned. Then a few weeks ago we got some papers from him just saying hed sent out to their SOL a couple more questions hed wanted answers for. A further couple of weeks passed and then a few days ago, 'Here is the paperwork Ive had back from the vendors solicitor.Other than that, no comment. In the vendors SOL's letter was a reference to the fact that the flat had had subsidence several years ago and they enclosed an engineers estimate for the work(although our SOL hadnt enclosed that to us). Again we couldnt get to speak to our SOL, so we emailed with a list of questions
What subsidence is this then
Their solicitor says 'estimate'- has work been done or not?
Was it monitored, howlong? was it signed off.
Is there a guarantee
Does the insurance company know?
We got no response from the SOL for a week. We left message after message - no response. Finally this morning, we rang and got a conveyancing clerk who told us she was arranging an hr appointment for next Tues to discuss everything with the SOL with a view to exchange being signed at the same time!! I pointed out we hadnt even had the solicitors report yet, and asked about the subsidence.The report is in the post she said. It was a tree she said, it hadnt been monitored, hadnt been signed off and the freeholder who lived himself in the bottom flat at the time, hadnt obtained a guarantee for the work, and you couldnt get one retrospectively. I was horrified - but she said our solicitor was happy for us to go ahead because the surveyors hadnt picked anything up, and they had checked that the insurance policy was in place. (It was, £9 a week for our flat, and a £2500 excess)
The clerk assured us that the insurance company hadnt required a guarantee, so that was ok as far as the SOL firm was concerned.
Basically I told her to put the meeting date for us and the solicitor back a couple of days to give me time to think over the holiday and get back to the SV's to see what they think.
I dont suppose they will be interested. They have their money now, (Still cost the same even though they could only access half the house) and have covered their backs well with all their get out clauses for the bits they couldnt access.
Ive been following the market for a year or more and very few flats come up with the spec we need, and theres been nothing else suitable on the market other than the two Ive gone for, for months. Ive laid out £2100 on SOL and SURV 's on this last one and Im loathe to see it go down the drain. The vendor is an absolute money grabbing SH*T who has lied about everything to us from the beginning (even had to be persuaded by the estate agent not to take the door handles with him just to give you an idea of his mentality), and there is no way he would reduce the price.We even have a confirmationn email from the EA ,copied to his client, saying the agreed price included fixtures and fittings yet hes put on the contents list apparently that hes taking them all and our SOL's clerk says theres nothing can be done about it short of stopping the sale.
Weve found 2 out of 2 properties weve gone ahead with now have both turned out to have had subsidence history, --- we could back out and find it happens again a 3rd time .
The flat is a bit overpriced although the market has caught up with it a bit through the delay. Its attractive and theres not many with its combination of features. The conveyancing clerk says it wouldnt be a problem to sell as long as it has insurance (despite the high cost) and we shouldnt be considering HIPS as the chances are high theyll end up being dumped out by the time we sell.
Im distinctly nervous about it all but am losing touch with whether Im being overcautious.(my daughter says in London most people just dont go into such detail as I do,they just go with the flow and if the solicitor doesnt flag anything up, they dont ask any questions, they just go for it and dont worry. )
What do you all reckon I should do then next week.

Go with the solicitors flow
Hassle the existing SV's to take advantage of the extra available access free of charge
Pay another SV for a further structural survey.
Walk away.
Other observations

Well, seems you are cautious which is no bad thing.

The Solicitor has no idea as to whether the property is saleable or not. Solicitor's rely on the survey being in good order, but ultimately it is your decision so they rely on you to make the call. Before exchange the Solicitor will ask if you are happy with the results of the survey. Clearly you are not.

The EA and the vendor can be ignored also in this regard. No point in asking them their opinion, you know it already "it's fine".

That leaves you with the Valuer. If you are unhappy with the report, which you clearly are, then I would pursue this line. Now that you know the property has had subsidence, I would instruct a full structural survey.

It is the only way you will get peace of mind.

are you buying with a mortgage? cos the building society protect themselves first you second so they would not lend if there was a problem.
I think you are the problem! just by looking at the length of your post, that's my educated guess

Its a cash sale following a parents death so the mortgage company is not involved. Thank you both for your views.

If you are concerned and it would appear from your comments that you are, then the only course of action for your own peace of mind is to have another full independent survey plus structural engineering report.

In short, you worry too much. When you buy a place, you insure it against damage. If it gets damaged, it is a nuisance and has to be repaired, but it does not cost you anything. You also get a lot of decoration done for nothing, it's great.
Of course if you are to buy a place then you should make sure that there is not a lot of damage which needs repair, because your insurance will not cover pre-existing damage, but of course subsidence damage is extremely easy to spot. If there aren't cracks both exterior and interior, there is no subsidence, and if such develop later, bad luck but you will be covered.

Forget that the conveyancing clerk says it wouldn't be a problem to sell, it's not his money and his risk. It's yours and you have to be happy. Clearly you have doubts, and with good grounds from what you've said, so it's either a new FULL structural survey with FULL access (speak to the downstairs occupants to arrange this, offer them a little thank you for letting you in such as wine or chocolates, and get chatting to ask about the flat's history and issues). Get tough with your solicitor and make sure ALL your questions are answered. Don't take any notice of the EA's bullying tactics. The £2100 you've spent so far is small fry compared to the cost of the flat so put it in perspective and don't let it influence your decision. If still in doubt then walk.

So you asked if the flat had every had subsidence. The owner said no. You found out that the place had suffered from subsidence and have no guarantee that the work is up to scratch?

Well the vendor lied to you (though you would have a hard time proving it).

Personally, I would walk away. I live in London and sudsidence is rare in most areas.

Yes, it is normal to do your survey before you go into details, so your EA was right about your first purchase. You should, though, ask the usual questions (has there been subsidence; have you had any problems with the neighbours, crime in the area, planned building work?...)

If there is a subsidence problem that need fixing, you would usually see large cracks on one or more walls. That said, the cracks may be somewhere you can't readily see (covered up by a book case / wardrobe for example?)

Only put your money down on a property if you are happy that it is worth having at the price that you are paying.

My own solicitor was very thorough. He would not let me buy my flat until he was sure that the property would be re-saleable (there were the usual problems with an old Lease). It took time, cost me a little extra, but was worth it for the protection against future problems selling.

It sounds as though your Solicitor just wants his money and is not interested in protecting you. Perhaps you should hire another Solicitor?

If you really want the property that you have chosen, you need to pay out for a full structoral survey. That is the only way that you will be able to tell if the property is sound. You need this assurance even more as a top floor flat, as the ground floor can be rebuilt on the ground if it falls down out of its insurance money. You cannot rebuild on thin air if the ground floor chooses not to rebuild or is not adequately insured and the place becomes unstable.


You are not being unreasonable in worrying about all this. It's a lot of money to be putting down and you are right to be cautious about it.


Ary.

Thanks for all your replies and comments. I did go back and ask more questions. I spoke to the company that gave the original estimate, the structural engineer in fact who assessed it. Turned out there was no underpinning, and the subsidence crack repair work type 1 at three sites, (caused by a tree) wasnt too extensive,which explained apparently why there was no guarantee. ( Spoke then again to the surveyor He had in fact.He was happy there was no active movement anywhere and verified it was common to have no guarantee for work that wasnt extensive enough for council notification.So, I was worrying unecessarily on that count.
The happiness was short lived. Beign suspicious that the insurance companies had been changed since the claim, I had queried via my solicitor that insurance was in place and that previous subsidence work had been declared. Their solicitor had replied in the affirmative.
Ive already mentioned elsewhere, ny avaricious nutcase vendor has already reneged on leaving all the fittings and fixtures agreed in the ori ginal price (hes emigrating so nothing I can do bar pull out) . Exchange day was today. At 4pm , I got a phone call from my solicitors , there was now doubt over whether subsidence HAD been declared to the new insurance company, plus the vendor is now demanding £1000 extra for his terrace potted plants,which Ive said all along I dont want, and if I dont complete tomorrow the vendor will pull out.(hes not in a hurry and hes seen the market rise since Feb)
Ive heard of property not being able to get insured following subsidence if theres no paperwork. I lost the last flat to a gazumper because I held out wanting to get all the facts. Ive been accused on here of being fussy, and I did doubt myself fora while, but I dont see how I could otherwise rest at night .
Everything is slowed by having to go through the solicitor.Im out of time. Does anyone know if it breaches any rules/ or anything that I could be sued for if I use the info Ive been given on the insurance company by my solicitor in his report, to ring them direct and ask straight whether they are aware or not?
Anyone any idea what sort of price hike Id face if we went ahead and had to take on one of those got you by the s.a.curlies specialist companies that say they take on hard to insure cases?
Its gutting me too to think of losing yet another place and then that bas*ard vendor calmly changes agent and sells it to some unsuspecting soul less paranoid than me who may then not be able to get decent insurance. Trouble is , sales are flying in Central London and he wont have a problem ---mmmm unless of course the insurers heard and dumped him ... Sorry, feeling very umpty and murderous at present

Cypriana, you are doing the worrying of your Solicitor. All you have said about the insurance is for the Solicitor to sort out. You pay your money, so they do the work. Only when the Solicitor is happy, will they tell you to proceed.

Ask your Solicitor what you should do next.

ok, now breathe...

seriously.

Do you want a house with problems Now, or a house that doesn't have serious problems Later?

Ask your Solicitor to check out the details surrounding the house. You are right to want it all sorted before you commit.

Do not let them see you panic. They have already picked up on how much you want the house and are taking advantage by asking for daft things like payment for patio plants.

As they are leaving the country, they will have to either pay to transport their furniture, or they will have to pay to dispose of them. Do they seriously plan on taking their plants with them? I don't think so.

Let your Solicitor explain to them nicely and calmly how he is not going to let you be ripped off about these things. Each time they make a suggestion; say you will have to think about it; then get your Solicitor to call them back.

You may feel that you have gone too far now and don't want to back out now. You have not gone too far. You can back out at any point up until you sign the contract. Discuss with your Solicitor a drop in your offer, due to the problems that seem to be cropping up and the expense of disposing of their unwanted posessions.

Your Vendors, if they are leaving the country, will have a deadline by which they need to sow up the sale too. They will need to sell off or get rid of most of their possessions, as they can't take them with them. They are trying to offload it onto you. If you don't want it, then don't take it.

And don't sign anything until you are happy.

Good Luck.

Ary.

Yep, I know I should be leaving it all to the solicitor, but he had ok'd the insurance because he had sight of the policy (and that doesnt mention what disclosures have or havent been made) It was me who was nervous having seen that the insurance had recently changed and was now nearly half the price it was a few years ago. At my insistance, he checked it out with vendors sol, initially they said ok, but now saying there is doubt. My solicitor says this morning that we'll wait for confirmation of what it covers , but is intimating that because the previous subsidence was only caused by a tree,(bear in mind we have no paperwork verifying that) and central london is a med/high risk subs area)its unlikely to happen again , and therefore as long as the policy is valid for everything else, thats reasonable.
Is it? I would have thought subsidence risk was the MAIN thing to cover yourself for.The area is considered medium - high risk for London clay subsidence.
Re vendor, he may well pull out with all this extra hassle, he's threatening to put flat back on the market with different agent for more money to cover lost solicitors cost. Hes single and can choose from several future emigration departure times if he chooses to let this one go.

Blimey!

Have you phoned around to get a quote on the insurance? It will be your responsibility once you have exchanged.

Tell him you don't want his pots. Full stop, that's it. Just tell him straight.

I'd call his bluff. There's a large percentage of people who would not even consider buying a property that had had a subsidence problem.

He won't back out, he would have done it by now..

Have made the pot side of things clear, yes, but regarding the insurance, its a RTM (Right to Manage company)self managing the several flats within the house, and cant be done individually. Its block insurance. The solicitor has now looked at the schedule and says its definately covered for subsidence, so its all down now to whether the policy is valid ie whether theyve been told of the previous subsidence. I just cant see it because the premiums are so low . Ive asked for the confirmation to be from the insurance company rather than the RTM member who organized the insurance, seeing as the latter has already mislead us once on the subject.My vendors solicitor will only care that he has it in writing that the ins co have been informed , he wont care if hes being mislead or not. Im waiting on a reply now. I feel a pearshape looming!

Insurance will be fine as the policy will not be held by individuals in the block but by the management company so if you buy you just replace the person who has sold