The Guardian carried an article yesterday about the new 'condensing boiler rules' which made interesting reading.
I didn't realise that "The local council, from this weekend, must also be informed if a new boiler has been installed." Soon we'll have to inform them when we put the milk bottles out.
A brief extract: "Nigel Mason told us: "We have had one for five years or so; when we had it fitted we had difficulty finding anyone willing to do the work. Since then there's been nothing but a catalogue of faults, and moaning from plumbers called out to fix them. Some plumbers won't even come out when they hear it's a condensing boiler.... People visiting ask whether we are living near an airport as it is so noisy on start-up."
This new ruling is an absolute Dogs Breakfast!! I can tell you at this very moment Plumbers and Plumbing and Heating Companies are going mad at this new legislation as it is badly prepared and ill conceived! Yes they are being fitted but the reliability factor is not good. We have heard only last week of a very experienced Heating Engineer refusing to return to a Cond. Boiler that he fitted in January because it keeps breaking down and like he says "I don't make them-I fit them in accordance with the Manufactures instructions,the Manufacturer guarantees the product it makes for 1 year let them send their expert to come and fix it" Nowhere else in the EU are they made to fit Condensing Boilers only Britain! God Help us-where's my milk bottles!
Oh dear, here we go again. I'm afraid I've got rather cynical about things as the years go by, but it's symptomatic of the whole building trade. When Joe public needs expert advice about a building, he goes to an architect - the man / woman who knows it all. Wrong. If you want to know about any product, go to the man on site who builds / fits it , and find out what really works or doesn't as the case may be. If Joe only knew how the architect actually worked out the details , he'd find out that the real experts did all the detailing for the architect, who then put the scheme together ( possibly ). So when Johnny 2 - Jags dreams up these new regulations, which effing architect did he use ? I'll bet he didn't ask Melboy or any of his mates. I remember years ago seeing a "brilliant" new type of chimney cowl, which was going to eliminate all down draughts, as it had a revolving metal cap which turned with the wind and sucked air up the chimney in the process. Worked wonderfully in the Tomorrow's World studio. Trouble is, nobody told the designer that fires send soot up the chimney, which promptly clogged up the moving parts rendering it useless and blocking the chimney ! Back to the drawing board as they say......
Mr.P It seems a shame to tar the proffession with the same brush. I know some excellent 'practicle' architects who are very profficient in detailing. Architectural technicians usually detail the building at construction stage anyway. But I do agree with your other comments regarding on site dialogue.
One of the things I find worrying about condensing boilers is the constant plume of steam. The recommendation in the article is to site the boilers in the loft or outhouse, to avoid the plume encroaching on your neighbour's territory.
However that isn't practical for a lot of people - e.g. we live in a Victorian terrace which has no outbuildings, and the loft has been converted so we can't use that either. (Not that it matters to us as we have a fairly new boiler, but when we move house it will be to a similar property). The kitchen will be the only place to position a boiler, which means the plume will inevitably encroach on the neighbours.
A condensing boiler has an after-cooler to extract more heat from the exhaust gas before sending it up the chimney. Thats it. Thats the big idea. Its that simple.
But when the exhaust gas is cooled enough, a few things happen. Some of the water vapour in the exhaust 'condenses' to liquid water. Because this is about as acidic as tomato juice, and thus slightly corrosive, such "condensation" was a strict no-no with traditional boilers - and systems were designed to deliberately keep the exhaust really hot - wasting heat, money and natural resources. When the exhaust is actually cooled as far as the condensing point, there is a bonus. The act of condensing gives extra heat - for those remembering their school science, its called latent heat of condensation. But its just that, a bonus, because there is a saving for every bit of heat gathered from what otherwise would be oven-hot exhaust going up the chimney - all the time! And because a condenser's exhaust is so cool, some of the rest of the water vapour is condensed by the cold outside air before it has been thoroughly mixed with that air - which produces a harmless, but visible plume. There's basically (see later) the same amount of mildly acidic water vapour in the exhaust of a 'traditional' boiler - its just that its so ruddy hot you don't see it! The same amount? Well, there's actually *more* acidic vapour from a traditional boiler - the condenser burns less gas to deliver the same heat, so there's less vapour produced AND then some of that is removed by condensation in the boiler's after-cooler... its just that you don't see any of it with an old-fashioned and wasteful 'traditional' boiler.
There's nothing complicated about making a boiler with an after-cooler - as long as you remember that the materials will be in a mildly corrosive environment - which is something some manufacturer's ignored in the quest for cheapness.
But aren't condensers complicated? Well, in order to try and collect the bonus latent heat, these boilers have control systems that vary the flame size according to the heat demand, rather than simply switching between off and flat out. ("Modulating" is the jargon word for variable.) That's the extent of it: vary the gas supply based on the water temperature. How hard can that be? But these control systems 1/ are electronic and 2/ live inside a boiler (where the temperature can change quickly and stay hot for... weeks? Now manufacturers of traditional boilers, as a species, have surprisingly little expertise in the design of electronic systems for long term use in these slightly harsh conditions (comfy compared to car electronics) - guys vertical mounting of circuit boards really helps self convection cooling, and little (computer) fans can be cheap, quiet and effective... and cooling preserves electronics. A secondary problem is that folks whose regular tools include drain rods, big spanners and blowlamps rarely have a skill-set that includes troubleshooting diagnosis of processor-controlled electronics. The computer you are using to read this is unimaginably more complex than a condensing boiler! And so is a fax machine, video recorder, dvd player, and likely not just your washing machine, but your tumble dryer too. Honestly, it ain't rocket science.
The idea that we should keep on deliberately wasting heat because the manufacturers would prefer to continue producing a brutally simple and inefficient product, or that this technology is too complicated to maintain, is just plain nonsense.
But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't agree that some aspects of the new regs are pretty nonsensical too...
Pity then Dougal, that ALL Members of the EU who signed up for less Global Warming didn't adhere to the rules of fitting condensing boilers. They are over complicated for what they have to do and overpriced. That's right a lot of plumbers won't want to fiddle around with electronic circuit boards because they are prone to weakness at the manufacturing stage and time is money, easier to change a whole component and get the thing working again! But it is not just that, it is all the stupid regulations that are coming into force that quite frankly, everyone will probably ignore. Did you know, or read, that a Swindon Town football supporter (39) was ejected and banned from the ground last Saturday for Standing Up from his seat prior to the Match starting,-- Why? It is against Health and Safety Rules to stand up during a football match! God Help Us All! This Country has gone mad!
So does anyone know the likely consequences of dodging the rules? We're replacing our boiler very soon, and would have preferred a combi to a condenser. We've run out of time to install it before the deadline, but the Guardian article implies that many Corgi plumbers will still happily install combi's. Our experience seems to suggest that too.
I don't know how much of the article was available online (I read the 'real' version) but after 2007 you have to give details of boiler installations in the Sellers Pack (this s*dding pack is going to be bigger than the telephone directory!) I guess at this early stage, you could just say it was installed pre 1st April so you escaped the condensing ruling.
But how would the manufacturer's guarantee work? Would they offer a guarantee on a boiler which should not have been installed? And presumably, if you have a BG 3 star service contract, they would refuse to take it on if they knew when it was installed.
Originally posted by velvet: I guess at this early stage, you could just say it was installed pre 1st April so you escaped the condensing ruling.
I suppose so, but then the Corgi certificate would indicate the date it was installed. Aside from the initial cost being higher (which I'm not that worried about) I'm just concerned with what I've heard about the reliability of condensing combi's. Why they've changed the regulations before the tecnology is up to scratch is beyond me... and I don't want to be a guinea pig at my own expense.
I don't know how the plumbers are getting round it - maybe during the first few weeks they will just put an earlier date on the certification. But after that, you would be on dodgy ground.
I'm wondering how strict they are going to be about 'exceptions'.
Originally posted by velvet: You can have a condensing combi though Gee.
I don't know how much of the article was available online (I read the 'real' version) but after 2007 you have to give details of boiler installations in the Sellers Pack (this s*dding pack is going to be bigger than the telephone directory!) I guess at this early stage, you could just say it was installed pre 1st April so you escaped the condensing ruling.
But how would the manufacturer's guarantee work? Would they offer a guarantee on a boiler which should not have been installed? And presumably, if you have a BG 3 star service contract, they would refuse to take it on if they knew when it was installed.
Every new installation has to be registered with CORGI and yes, you guessed it it will cost the Plumber £2 to register it! More D*amn expense. It wouldn't be so bad if we all didn't know that CORGI, as an organisation, is about as much use as a Chocolate Teapot! And there are other rules which came into force which I won't bore you with.
Velvet - the rules do seem to accept that the wet plumes are more intrusive, and consequently the flue siting rules are more restrictive for the condensing type boilers, as they aim to reduce the possible nuisance to people. Particularly interesting, is that terminals should not be sited within 2.5m from a facing wall, fence, or boundary (c.f. 0.6m for ‘ordinary’ boilers). This means that a Victorian mid-terrace with a typical narrow side return of less than 2.5m could easily be exempt under the assessment. See this ODPM publication - Guide to the Condensing Boiler Installation Assessment Procedure
Originally posted by velvet: How dyou think plumbers will get round it then Mel - or are you saying that there's really no way they can?
No there is no way around it. A proper VAT, CORGI Registered Company will have to abide by the new legislation in order to survive but like previous changes in rules the Customers won't accept the fact that extra costs will be involved due to additional legislation. The Unregistered 'Cowboy' fraternity of course won't give a Monkeys and will still carry on sticking two fingers up at CORGI and any other legislation.
Originally posted by phugoid: Velvet - the rules do seem to accept that the wet plumes are more intrusive, and consequently the flue siting rules are more restrictive for the condensing type boilers, as they aim to reduce the possible nuisance to people. Particularly interesting, is that terminals should not be sited within 2.5m from a facing wall, fence, or boundary (c.f. 0.6m for ‘ordinary’ boilers). This means that a Victorian mid-terrace with a typical narrow side return of less than 2.5m could easily be exempt under the assessment. See this ODPM publication - Guide to the Condensing Boiler Installation Assessment Procedure
In that case we're certainly exempt. Our flue could only be sited in the side return of our Victorian maisonette, which is about 1m wide from the wall to the fence between ours and our neighbour's 'return'. Thanks phugoid, I'll follow the link and look at the rules in more detail.
That aspect of the regs make you wonder what people who live in high density housing areas will do when only condensing boilers are available on the market in a few years time. Sit round a candle for heating?!
My partner just emailed me a story which Johnny Vaughan read out on Capital radio this morning - about builders not now being able to take their tops off in hot weather in case of skin cancer (it's not April the 1st is it!?). He finished off by saying "what next? getting arrested for going out without wet hair?" Well, it can't be that far off can it...
Yes, you’re spot on there Velvet, the odpm stuff is both clear and annoyingly confusing at the same time, and this one is no exception . The siting rules are more restrictive, but only for the exercise of deciding how difficult an installation will be, and then having scored the difficulty and decided, you (sort of) ignore them. But they are, at least, designed to allow the heating company some leeway to install the older type boilers provided they can justify the exception.
Did I understand that last sentence correctly phugoid? - the plumber can install a non-condensing boiler if siting is too difficult (too close to neighbours boundaries) - or did you just mean they can install a condensing boiler and ignore the boundary issue?
In a classic piece of twisty logic worthy of Hitchhiker’s, it looks like they can do either – they are required to install condensing types, but are allowed to argue that installing one is too difficult, and the evidence to support the argument can rely on the ‘more restrictive rules’, but having won/lost the argument, (I think) they have to revert back to the original rules when actually installing it.
Brit*sh G*s are still fitting non-condensing units! Come to think of it so are we! What's the date? 5th April? Well, Smack my Thigh and call me Roger---- we fitted a Standard f/Flue Boiler on the 1st April. PS Don't tell anyone!
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