Neighbouring tenant farmer has just bought their farm.

Their solicitor is now claiming that the land they have bought includes part of our garden ! despite the fact that our land registry title plan clearly shows the extent of our land when we moved here several years ago.

They are claiming that as the farmer's father has always farmed the piece of land in question since the mid 60's that there must be a mistake in our title. The previous owner of our property had been here longer than that.

We are being asked to transfer the land to the farmer free of charge otherwise they will apply to the Land Registry to remove the land they are claiming from our title.

We have a hefty mortgage with a charge in favour of the bank.

Does anyone know if there is any way the farmer's solicitor could legally be correct in their claim and proposed course of action.

The land in question is a significant part of our already not very large garden. Whereas it represents a tiny ammount of land compared to what they have just bought at a very cheap price.

We have always got on with them well, or so we thought, and we are a bit stunned by this news.

ps.

I have heard stories of this sort of thing happening in Spain and parts of Eastern Europe but didn't think it could, legally, in England.

Without photos, plans and much more detail a full answer is impossible. First question.

Is there a fence along your boundaries?

Even if your plan shows the land as 'belonging' to your property, if the farmer can prove he has had unopposed access and use of the land for a period of at least 12 years he can claim 'adverse posession' and the land becomes his.

It's a complicated area of law. Your first job is to have a chat with the farmer and find out what is going on. At some point you may need representation and that means money (potentially lots of it), so friendly negotiation is your first course of action.

I agree with daveyjp, there are circumstances in which the farmer could be correct (whether these apply in your case would need a thorough investigation of all the facts). I would try the negotiation option to see what the farmer is really on about. In the meantime get in touch with the CAB or the Land Registry and ask for advice. I think (but am not totally certain) there is a mediation service to deal with cases like this and those two bodies should be able to advise if this is the case.

Have a look at gardenlaw for lots of advice on this kind of thing. Google the word.

Thank you for the speedy responses.

There is a fence on the disputed area which I think may have been erected, possibly by the farmer's family, whilst the previous owner of our property was marketing it for sale.

How do we clarify whether this was put in the right place ?

I believe the solicitor who acted for us has now retired and his practice closed.

Is the 12 year period similar to squatters rights, or similar, and hasn't the law on that changed fairly recently ?

Does the fact that the farmer that has bought the land is the son of, rather than the actual previous tenant farmer alter anything ?

Found this definition of adverse possesion (squatters rights):

"Adverse possession refers to the occupation of land against the interests of the real owner by someone who does not have title to it. The adverse possessor, or squatter, must intentionally possess the land (and prevent both the world at large and the rightful owner from using it) in a way that is adverse to the interests of the proper owner (ie. he must not be holding the land as a tenant or licensee) and he must act as if he were the occupying owner and demonstrate that no-one else has so acted."

Am I right in therefore thinking that a tenant farmer can not claim adverse possesion ?

I am also fairly certain that the current fence is nowhere near 12 years old and therefore, as apparently none was there before, does not create any legal precedent ?

1. Am I right in therefore thinking that a tenant farmer can not claim adverse possesion ?

But you don't know that is what he is claiming

2. am also fairly certain that the current fence is nowhere near 12 years old and therefore, as apparently none was there before, does not create any legal precedent ?

there's nop defence there as you yourself by your own admission do not know if there was a fence there ie "apparently none"


I think you really need to know the fullbasis of the farmer's claim because without that all speculation is fruitless.

We would obviously like to avoid the legal route if at all possible.

It was actually daveyjp that initially mentioned adverse possesion (AP). I was just trying to clarify whether AP could actually be relevant and applicable when any farming use of the neighbouring land would have due to a tenancy agreement(s).

My other half has spoken with the farmer's family but they don't seem to be able to clarify what the problem is whilst their solicitor seems to have just drawn an arbitrary line across part of our garden on the title plan which they are claiming on his behalf.

Really not sure how to proceed from here.

Would like to avoid endless solicitor's letters backwards and forwards that don't really clarify anything but cost a lot of money.

Agricultural tenancies
Possible adverse possession
Neighbours who don't know what their solictor (whose bill they pay) is doing.

Nightmare!

First stage:

A meeting between you, them and their solicitor. At least that way your neighbours may get a better understanding of what he is actually up to!!!

Second guessing situations like this will only get your blood pressure up, so you need to take it step by step.

quote:

They are claiming that as the farmer's father has always farmed the piece of land in question since the mid 60's that there must be a mistake in our title

Its for them to prove there is a mistake. I suggest (as well as doing what daveyjp suggests) that you talk to the LR, at the very least they will have some explanatory leaflets setting out what the solicitor would have to show to register the land in his clients name - its not good enough for him to say "there must be a mistake"

Out of interest how much land are we talking about here - you give the i pression its quite small but its difficult to understand why they would be going to all this bother if that were the case

Thank you both for your constructive suggestions.

daveyjp,

I agree that they are maybe not aware that their solicitor is probably totting up their bill over this.

A meeting between the 3 parties, presumably on our terms, would seem a sensible way forward.

N E Juan,

I agree that surely the onus is on them to prove there is a mistake in the land we are registered as owning. Otherwise it would be a complete nightmare with people potentially making these sort of claims all over the place.

Our garden is reasonably wide but not very long . They are claiming a strip the entire width but not parallel with boundaries. I would estimate at least 3 meters one end up to around 6 meters the other.

Quite significant for ourselves but tiny in comparison to the over 300 acres and extensive traditional house and farmyard they have just bought very cheaply. It certainly seems petty, particularly if this was not instigated by their solicitor.

quote:

despite the fact that our land registry title plan clearly shows the extent of our land when we moved here several years ago.

I think this thread has been over complicated by a simple lack of clarity.

Are you saying that:
1. the area that you are occupying (i.e within the fence line) coincides with the extent of your registered title; or
2. some part of the land shown on the title plan is the other side of the fence that has been there since you bought the property?

I]As a conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful but I accept no liability except to fee-paying clients.

At this stage we are not entirely clear.

It actually looks from the solicitor's letter and plan that they are claiming part of what we occupy within our side of the fence but we also thought it could possibly be interpreted as your 2. option

As there are no actual measurements being stated by the farmer or their solicitor it is all very unclear.

I am also under the impression that the Land Registry title plan's are not precise and are therefore not supposed to be scaled to resolve this sort of situation.

I looked through all the documents for the sale of the farm prior to auction and there was nothing that I saw that would clarify any of this either.

I've no advice but just wanted to offer sympathy, I'd be livid if it was me. I hope you work it out.

Thank you.

We are none too happy about it all and could really do without a lot of stress over this at a difficult time anyway.

Fingers crossed it can be resolved quickly and amicably although I know these sort of things rarely seem to be as easy to resolve as you would hope or expect.

If you have an absolute title to your property (as opposed to a possessory title) then the Land Registry guarantee it, unless someone has been able to claim adverse possession.

So if the land in question is your side of the fence line how can they claim adverse possession because you have been occupying it and you have title to it?

If some of the land in your paper title is actually the other side of the fence then you probably never realised it was yours so you would not really be losing anything.

If they are saying that the fence includes not only all your paper title but also some land that does not belong to you to which they have a title, then it would be a question as to whether you could show adverse possession of it, and this might not be the case.

As a conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful but I accept no liability except to fee-paying clients.

Thank you for your reply

The extract from the Land Registry says we hold Title Absolute.

It was actually another poster that raised the possibly of an adverse possession (AP) claim.

However from reading the paragraph I posted above about AP can there ever be an instance like this where a tenant farmer can claim land as AP as surely by accepting the tenancy they are accepting they are renting and not attempting to own the land in question.

in terms of your 3 scenarios with the fence.

a) your conclusion is the same as our own.

b) we are still not sure if this is what they are claiming. I have actually been trying to clarify ownership of the other side of the fence for some time anyway and long before the recent farm sale.
We have a map from the 1960's which shows a much larger tract of land, perhaps 100 meters further than the modern fence in question, extending from our house and definitely seperate to the farm. I have not been able, so far, to clarify if that land was ever sold but we would like to reinstate it and the farmer was aware that this was the case prior to the recent farm auction.

c) I don't think this applies. Fairly certain that our side of the fence does not contain any land not outlined in the Land Registry Title Absolute plan

I would say that b) is probably why they are fighting you on this then, as they would want to ensure that they get all of theland that they believed they were bidding for.

It sounds as though you are pretty safe on land your side of the fence, but if you thought when you bought the place that you could re-extend the boundaries to the extent you believe the land registry data states, then it looks like you have a fight on your hands.

If the land the other side of the fence has been used even though not owned for over 12 years, then you won't be able to claim it back (unless it was rented off the previous owners, which does not sound to be the case).

So it looks like you won't gain any land further to what is contained within your fenced border, but you are unlikely to lose any land within the plot that you viewed and paid for either.

Ary.

quote:

However from reading the paragraph I posted above about AP can there ever be an instance like this where a tenant farmer can claim land as AP as surely by accepting the tenancy they are accepting they are renting and not attempting to own the land in question.

A squat by a tenant is a squat on behalf of his landlord so the fact of him being a tenant is not relevant.

As a conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful but I accept no liability except to fee-paying clients

how about the part that says

"and prevent both the world at large and the rightful owner from using it"

Are you certain the farmer actually knows what his solicitor is claiming? We had one of these disturbing letters from our next door neighbour's solicitor when he bought the land adjacent to our garden from a farmer, and it turned out the new owner had no idea at all that the solicitor was trying to claim part of our garden. All settled amicably - which is a good job as at last quote he was worth 136 million pounds! I coulnd't have afforded to a solicitor to fight that.