Sorry but this is another 'damp' query.
Last year , we had a survey on our house and (of course) the surveyor recommended a damp course. We had no choice but to comply- so handed over £700 and got a thirty year certificate. At the time, my partner was very suspicious that the front wall hadn't been done. But the guy said he had drilled between the bricks.....
Then two weeks later we started getting damp patches back on the front bay wall- the only area that has ever had any damp. This damp was all around the window frame and also some at shoulder height. Rang the builder again and said 'Remember that guarantee?!'.
He said 'Oh no that's only for RISING damp- this is penetrating damp- caused by the window needing a new sill (?)and dodgy pointing on the brickwork.' This seemed to make sense- and because we couldn't get in touch with our ususal builder- we handed over another £500.

So now we have had several weeks of torrential rain- and guess what? Yes, the damp has re-appeared in exactly the same places. I rang the builder several times- only to be told he'll get back to me. The first time he said 'Oh no we don't do that type of work' and when I yelled so what did you charge me £500 for then , he hastily back-tracked and said he would 'check the file'.
Last week I wrote a letter of complaint detailing all these incidents and asking them to go and check their work. So far, I ahve had no reply.
So I have paid over £1000 and still have the same patch of damp that has always been there What can I do now???????

Cry about it Builders are treated like gods because they are in such demand they are unregulated unsympathetic and as there are very little industry standards can charge near enough what they like.
Everyone knows what an EA charges but an extension or dampwork costs can vary dramatically.
I had a flat of mine refurbished I told the builder I had a budget of £4,000 and not a penny more (bear in mind this was someone that I had chucked a lot of work at) He tried to ask me for £6,000 When I reminded him of the original quote he backtracked and left it at £4,000. Now if he had been out of pocket genuinely for £2,000 don't you think he would have pursued me for it!!!!

You can tell Trading Standards, and you can take him to the small claims court but the chances of you getting anything even after the court finds in your favour are slim to grim.

Damp proof courses are, if not a complete con, something very close.
To get a mortgage on an older property you will have to have one 'installed'. It will mean removing plaster to half way up all your ground floor walls -apart from difficult to get to bits which is where all the trouble will be anyway. This will destroy all the period features like skirting boards and panelling that you liked about the property in the first place and may necessitate re-wiring.
All this so that someone can drill a few holes in some bricks and whack some silicon in. I would love a scientific analysis of how effective this is under normal working conditions.
Seventeen years ago when I was naive and first had one done it did nothing to cure the negligible damp in the property and when the new plaster bulged alarmingly I found the company, although twenty five years trading, had gone bust in the intervening 3 months. One lady I know tried to buy a cob style building and the lender insisted she have a damp course fitted. Expert advice stated that after around three hundred years, the building would probably crumble in the next decade if she did so as it relied on a residual level of moisture.
I can only think that DPCs are a device to keep builders and suppliers in business.

It occurs to me that the builder said that it was because of a rotting window and pointing needing repair. That seems to me to mean you might well have a good insurance claim. If you have, then you are one of the lucky ones. There is a HUGE difference between builders working on insurance claim jobs and others.

I may be a case of misdiagnosis.

Let me run this one past you:

Your wall is two leaves of brick with a cavity in the middle. Your window surrounds span across this gap.

Now let's for a moment imagine that there is a problem with the roof that is letting water drip down into the cavity and land on the lintel of the window.

The water has to go somwhere so it goes into the surrounding brick, plaster wood etc as damp.

If that is the case, then pointing until the cows come home won't fix it. Neither will repairing the window sill. In fact that may well be why the window has rotted.

I may be wrong - but it's worth a thought.


lee

I thought you said you were never wrong??!!

quote:

Originally posted by carol2:
I thought you said you were never wrong??!!

Well no one's been able to prove it yet.

Where's our nuclear scientist gone?


lee

I don't think it's the roof because it's at shoulder height and just where the bay sticks out into the street - the street is a real 'wind alley' and tends to funnel wind and rain down it on lovely inclement days. So the rain is kind of blown vertically against the wall and enters through the pointing.
Insurance claim is a damn good idea- why didn't I think of that ?

quote:

Originally posted by decca:
I don't think it's the roof because it's at shoulder height and just where the bay sticks out into the street - the street is a real 'wind alley' and tends to funnel wind and rain down it on lovely inclement days. So the rain is kind of blown vertically against the wall and enters through the pointing.
Insurance claim is a damn good idea- why didn't I think of that ?

I thought you said it had been sealed and repointed? So where is the water coming from?

Insurance won't give you new windows. It's up to you to maintain them. However, if the damage had been caused by water ingress from the roof running down the inside of the cavity wall - then maybe. They won't pay for the money you've already spent though.


lee

quote:

I thought you said it had been sealed and repointed? So where is the water coming from?

From the builder not doing the pointing properly- you can actually see that he has only half-heartedly flicked cement on a couple of places. So the water is still coming in the places he missed. I shouldn't have paid him unitl it rained again

If the insurance pays for the pointing to be done properly and the wall to be re-plasterd and painted- the window might survive another winter...
I have downloaded the forms for the small claims court- I know I'll never get my money back but the idea of revenge makes me feel better...

2 questions - is it a single storey bay and is there definately a cavity (how old is the property - you don't say in your original post)?

If the answer to both is yes, in an ideal world, there should be a cavity tray above where the roof abuts the external wall, which should then have open or 'proprietary' (purpose made plastic) weepholes in the vertical joints along the length of the tray. Cavity tray's(now) have stop-ends at each end of the tray to stop water within the cavity from dropping off the ends - the idea of the stop ends is to then 'force' any water out of the weepholes (then down the flashings onto the roof). Where abouts in relation to the bay is the shoulder-height 'damp'?

Other possibilities of the 'damp' around the window frame is a defective vertical dpc (assuming it's got one in the first place - has the window been replaced at any stage?). It could just be a 'cold spot' - ie., a cold bridge where any insulation is missing.

jon, I wish I could draw on here!
The wall is to the left of the single story bay and sort of forms part of it.
The house was built in 1850 but I think the bay window was added in the 60s. The other houses in the row have all gone for the flat- fronted look- presumably because of similar problems.
If it is because of a lack of a damp-course. I will be *RATHER* angry as this is what the builders are supposed to have done. And I have a certificate

Too early for cavity brickwork then.

I'd have thought you could have got a whole new frame for £500.



lee

How DO you find a good builder then? Look for some trade association?

quote:

Originally posted by decca:
How DO you find a good builder then? Look for some trade association?

I believe that a lot of pretty bad builders join trade assocs to give themselves credentials. I have no faith in them as they are motivated by profit.

Recommendation is the only way foward.

Ask a potentional builder for references from previous clients and follow them up!

quote:

Originally posted by cakehead:
Damp proof courses are, if not a complete con, something very close.
One lady I know tried to buy a cob style building and the lender insisted she have a damp course fitted. Expert advice stated that after around three hundred years, the building would probably crumble in the next decade if she did so as it relied on a residual level of moisture.
I can only think that DPCs are a device to keep builders and suppliers in business.

This leads me to our problem regarding DPC and use of modern water barriers.
We have an old house with solid walls which are almost certainly chalk filled, with some stone some brickwork. Some bright spark probably 1940/50s put a cement render on the outside and there is some modern plaster on the inside. Too add to the issues it looks like there may have been an injection DPC as there are some drill holes but by no means a full set of them! We are planning to completely re-render and re-plaster as much of what is there is damaged and plenty more will get damaged when we rebuild the extension (1940/50s with flat roof). The thing is do we replace the cement render and plaster with lime plaster and render or do we use modern materials as are currently in place? There is some evidence of damp in one corner but given that the ground level has been raised outside above the internal floor level (yes we will be reducing it back) and the guttering had been pouring water down the wall for years, we were not too worried about damp. So old or new? Thoughts please.

quote:

Originally posted by lee33:

quote:

Originally posted by carol2:
I thought you said you were never wrong??!!

Well no one's been able to prove it yet.

Where's our nuclear scientist gone?


lee

I'd say you weren't bright enough to understand you'd been proved wrong. Not quite the same thing

quote:

Originally posted by howMuch!:

quote:

Originally posted by lee33:

quote:

Originally posted by carol2:
I thought you said you were never wrong??!!

Well no one's been able to prove it yet.

Where's our nuclear scientist gone?


lee

I'd say you weren't bright enough to understand you'd been proved wrong. Not quite the same thing

When the argument is lost - the abuse begins.

I'm bright enough to understand that you have no answers to the posts above. If you want to refute them - the floor's all yours.

Come on - it's your 15 minutes of fame.

lee

I've answered them in the other post

quote:

Originally posted by howMuch!:
I've answered them in the other post

No you haven't.

Go back and have a look.

Click on the link that Phugoid provided for you.


lee

Firstly the injection holes from a DPC should nearly always be visible, unless other work such as pointing was carried out at the same time.

Secondly this doesn't sound like its being caused by the lack of a DPC or its failure, but it could be caused by its installation. The lower portion of "plaster", usually about a metre, is removed before injection and then replaced after its completion. In many houses this "plaster" was in fact a sand and cement scratch coat with a finish plaster skim. This is often repaced by a two coat plaster finish. Any plaster applied directly to brick work acts like a sponge and then any moisture in the bickwork can be sucked through the wall.

These problems can also occur when replacement windows have been installed or repairs to walls using plaster