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Originally posted by smokeAndMirrors:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

So how do you explain people who come to faith in their 40's or 50's?

There are no age restrictions on being wrong.

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Originally posted by Greenjack:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
So how do you explain people who come to faith in their 40's or 50's?

senile dementia?
pascals wager?
this group is clearly a minority

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Originally posted by Heselbine:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

Likelihood 1 of existence of Yahweh: very tiny
Likelihood 2 of existence of Allah: very tiny

Likelihood 1 = likelihood 2

Which part of this equation are you struggling with?

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

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Originally posted by Greenjack:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
So how do you explain people who come to faith in their 40's or 50's?

senile dementia?
pascals wager?
this group is clearly a minority

OOOh! OOh! Wait! Here's another one, Jack:

Divine revelation!

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Originally posted by smokeAndMirrors:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

So how do you explain people who come to faith in their 40's or 50's?

There are no age restrictions on being wrong.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

Flawed thinking, since one possibility precludes the other.
So, in your case, Likelihood 2 = 0 so long as Likelihood 1 exists at all.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

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Originally posted by Greenjack:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
So how do you explain people who come to faith in their 40's or 50's?

senile dementia?
pascals wager?
this group is clearly a minority

OOOh! OOh! Wait! Here's another one, Jack:

Divine revelation!

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Originally posted by Heselbine:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

Flawed thinking, since one possibility precludes the other.
So, in your case, Likelihood 2 = 0 so long as Likelihood 1 exists at all.

I think this demonstrates nothing other than you have a fundamental misunderstanding of probability. Do you want me to draw a Venn diagram? Would that help?

A likelihood is a probability. Likelihood 1 applies to event 1. If event 1 is true, we don't know that it's true - that's why we're using a probability. Only when the actuality of event 1 is known, and it stops becoming a probability, can we bring in any connection to likelihood 2.

Even then, it is NOT TRUE that the existence of Yahweh precludes the existence of Allah. They could both be real gods fighting it out for dominance. Yahweh could exist and be lying to you - it's a possibility.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

A Venn diagram to explain probability?
Yes, I'd like to see that.

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Originally posted by RedJooles:
Many come to faith in adult life, with no Christian upbringing! Around 60-80 million in China - where there is persecution for those that believe!

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Originally posted by Heselbine:
It took about ten years for the general public to realise they were never going to win the lottery, on the basis that they hadn't in that time.

I suspect many of those chinese christians will fall away from christianity again when they realise it doesn't actually give them anything.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

Perhaps many of them are actually quite happy just living, until such time as they collect their winnings? (= Eternal life)

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

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Originally posted by free_thinker:
Ok, lets pass on that.
Q1. Do you earnestly and and with certainty believe you will go to heaven?
(With say the same level of certainty I (you) have that the sun will rise tomorrow).

Yes

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Originally posted by free_thinker:

Q1. Do you earnestly and and with certainty believe you will go to heaven?
(With say the same level of certainty I (you) have that the sun will rise tomorrow).

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Q2. Assuming the family of the JW woman believed the same, do you suppose they were happy or sad at her death?

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Q3. If happy, why do you suppose funerals are such glum, unhappy events?

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Originally posted by ballyboneman:

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Originally posted by free_thinker:

Q1. Do you earnestly and and with certainty believe you will go to heaven?
(With say the same level of certainty I (you) have that the sun will rise tomorrow).

No; but I hope I will.

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Q2. Assuming the family of the JW woman believed the same, do you suppose they were happy or sad at her death?

I would imagine that they expressed both emotions; sad that a loved one had gone from them so tragically but happy in the hope that she will rest in the presence of her saviour.

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Q3. If happy, why do you suppose funerals are such glum, unhappy events?

I take it you've never been to an Irish wake

Grief, that personal sense of loss, and maybe regret for things left unsaid are what make funerals sad affairs on the whole. You can be both happy for someone because of some event in their lives, but sad also because of the implications/repercussions for yourself.

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Originally posted by free_thinker:

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

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Originally posted by free_thinker:
Ok, lets pass on that.
Q1. Do you earnestly and and with certainty believe you will go to heaven?
(With say the same level of certainty I (you) have that the sun will rise tomorrow).

Yes

Q2. Assuming the family of the JW woman believed the same, do you suppose they were happy or sad at her death?

1Thessalonians 4.13 - 18. I read this passage at my father's funeral recently, and although I was immensely sad to see him go, I derived some comfort from the belief that he was going to a better place. I wasn't happy that he had died.

Q3. If happy, why do you suppose funerals are such glum, unhappy events?
Most funerals are for people who aren't Christians, so their relly's know that it's game over, and they'll never get to see the deceased, ever again.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
1Thessalonians 4.13 - 18. I read this passage at my father's funeral recently, and although I was immensely sad to see him go, I derived some comfort from the belief that he was going to a better place. I wasn't happy that he had died.

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Q3. If happy, why do you suppose funerals are such glum, unhappy events?
Most funerals are for people who aren't Christians, so their relly's know that it's game over, and they'll never get to see the deceased, ever again.

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Originally posted by free_thinker:
This will get a bit personal so feel free to decline to answer.

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Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
1Thessalonians 4.13 - 18. I read this passage at my father's funeral recently, and although I was immensely sad to see him go, I derived some comfort from the belief that he was going to a better place. I wasn't happy that he had died.

Surely if you really knew he had gone to heaven you would be overwhelmingly happy, tinged with a bit of sadness of not seeing him for a few short years followed by eternity in heaven.

A very interesting point of view, Free Thinker: Have you ever lost a parent / sibling / cousin / whatever? For the record, I would be happy to think that he had gone to heaven, but happier if he had stayed on earth, if that doesn't seem utterly selfish of me? Might I just say that you are currently plumbing new depths of poor taste, even for a Channel 4 discussion forum?

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Q3. If happy, why do you suppose funerals are such glum, unhappy events?
Most funerals are for people who aren't Christians, so their relly's know that it's game over, and they'll never get to see the deceased, ever again.

So the rellys don't know that without a funeral? 'Xian' funerals are no different in my experience, so this explanation just doesn't cut it.
I would refer you, then, to my reply above.
Have you ever been to a "Xian" funeral: That is, one where the deceased, and all of the mourners were "proper" Christians?
If it's helpful for you to understand, when my Mum died some 20 years ago, I was pretty unconsolable, rather like something of a wreck, as I could only see the loss and separation: At my father's funeral, in the spirit of the passage from Thessalonians, I read a complete elegy plus Bible readings and Psalms, largely without blubbering. But I certainly wasn't happy that he died..

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Originally posted by Greenjack:

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Originally posted by RedJooles:
Many come to faith in adult life, with no Christian upbringing! Around 60-80 million in China - where there is persecution for those that believe!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are taken in by religious nonsense

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Originally posted by RedJooles:

Do you know that YOU, were not always around? That you will one day, not be around again?