quote:

Originally posted by Milan K:

Good quote. I'd argue however with the "right to teach them to his children". Children need protecting from this sort of nonsense.

Have A Word, I loved the way you describe how you expect atheists to behave (that they shouldn't bother you) and then deride them for not behaving that way.

Here's how to make atheists not bother you: don't support teaching nonsense to my children and end the institutionalisation of Christianity in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

But why do you all get so excited about the whole affair.

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me? Because they think they occupy the moral high ground and that they can call the shots on what is and isn't valid viable scientific research? Because women, gays and other groups are subject to institutional prejudice by religions and that angers me? It doubly angers me (as I've said time and time again) that people with no other qualification than an irrational belief in an invisible superbeing are given a free place in the political process. In the USA said belief is almost a necessary condition for political office. I don't think this is such a good qualification for people whose fingers could be on The Button - their judgement seems impaired. And that scares me.

But over and above that, is my regard for the truth as something too precious to give up without a fight.

Also, I'm always up for a feisty debate. Without the airing of ideas we become static, stagnant. And without being passionate about ideas then we cease to care, and that's bad for everyone.

At a deeper level, clique rivalry is an obvious consequence of our genetic heritage. Conflict is part of the game of society (in a Marxist Dialectic sense). What doesn't kill us can make us stronger.

quote:

But there is absolutely nothing laissez faire about you guys. Exhibit "A" - your above response.

There's nothing Laissez Faire about the church. It aggressively runs evangelism world-wide, exploiting the poor, the suffering, children, criminals, people with mental health issues, the naive (yada yada) to keep its numbers up. Like it has respect for other schools of thought

And the Catholic Church is a disgraceful institution, yielding a hideous amount of power and wealth (oh the irony given the focus of Xianity) that has brought no end of misery and blight upon the world. I hope for better. And if these aren't issues to get angry over, I wonder what the heck is?

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:

Care to enlighten us with your insight.
Medical science is clearly in need of your assistance as it probably didn't think to cure these conditions with the 'other way' when it could use that as an excuse to muck about with genetics.

What a loss to humankind it is that you don't work in medical science.

Has this technology been used to heal any of these conditions yet... that is a genuine question?

I'm sure these forms of medical science are going to make a few men a lot of money and their names written down in the history books.

I hope that people really are helped to overcome these debilitating conditions, I really do!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:

Care to enlighten us with your insight.
Medical science is clearly in need of your assistance as it probably didn't think to cure these conditions with the 'other way' when it could use that as an excuse to muck about with genetics.

What a loss to humankind it is that you don't work in medical science.

Has this technology been used to heal any of these conditions yet... that is a genuine question?

I'm sure these forms of medical science are going to make a few men a lot of money and their names written down in the history books.

I hope that people really are helped to overcome these debilitating conditions, I really do!

If it was up to religion we would still be in the dark ages. Religion thrives on ignorance!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:

Care to enlighten us with your insight.
Medical science is clearly in need of your assistance as it probably didn't think to cure these conditions with the 'other way' when it could use that as an excuse to muck about with genetics.

What a loss to humankind it is that you don't work in medical science.

Has this technology been used to heal any of these conditions yet... that is a genuine question?

I'm sure these forms of medical science are going to make a few men a lot of money and their names written down in the history books.

I hope that people really are helped to overcome these debilitating conditions, I really do!

................................

No. But it should/will do as the premis is sound.

I would imagine that a lot of money would be made and also that their names would be noted in scientific journals.

FYI - the researchers prefer to use theists rather than laboratory rats....not only is their behaviour more predictable but also they become less attached to them!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Milan K:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
I'm sure that this has been pointed out before, but as Christians, we are required to advise you of the mortal and eternal danger which you place yourselves in by failing to acknowledge the majesty and the dominion of the Almighty.
If you don't accept God's free gift of salvation, through the sacrifice of His Son, then you're heading for eternity with the Prince of Darkness.

Consider yourself told.

LOL. You should have your own TV show, man. Seriously.

Ssshhhh!
Don't tell anybody, Milan, but.......

" Atheism rises above creeds, and puts Humanity upon one plane. There can be no "chosen people" in the Atheist philosophy. There are no bended knees in Atheism; no supplications, no prayers; no sacrificial redemptions; no "divine" revelations; no washing in the blood of the lamb; no crusades, no massacres, no holy wars; no heaven, no hell, no purgatory; no silly rewards and no vindictive punishments; no christs and no saviors; no devils, no ghosts, and no gods. " - Joseph Lewis

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

Unelected Bishops sitting in the HOL - is that democracy?

Religious influence and lobbying over science - is that democracy?

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman Al:
" Atheism rises above creeds, and puts Humanity upon one plane. There can be no "chosen people" in the Atheist philosophy. There are no bended knees in Atheism; no supplications, no prayers; no sacrificial redemptions; no "divine" revelations; no washing in the blood of the lamb; no crusades, no massacres, no holy wars; no heaven, no hell, no purgatory; no silly rewards and no vindictive punishments; no christs and no saviors; no devils, no ghosts, and no gods. " - Joseph Lewis

So, are those the thoughts of Joseph Lewis, or the thoughts of Chairman Al?
Or maybe they're the same??
Or else - Who had the thoughts first?
Does either person actually have any original thoughts??

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

It's often called the "Tyranny of the Majority". As JS Mill - the father of modern democracy - noted, an uneducated population (by which one means those who receive no schooling, or one which was merely an exercise in box-ticking and which does not encourage critical thinking skills) are at the behest of tyrants.

I don't have a problem with democracy as a process. If it occasionally produces policy I don't like, then it's largely working. If it continually fails to produce consistent sensible policy for reasons orthogonal to the issues at hand, I get concerned. Capisce?

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

----------------------------------

Easy to say...not easy for the victims of the Iraq war which was declared by Blair (by his own admission) after God had spoken to him. Before I vote for someone I need to know whether or not he is hearing voices from God...so I really know what I'm voting for.

quote:

Originally posted by CDarwin:

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

----------------------------------

Easy to say...not easy for the victims of the Iraq war which was declared by Blair (by his own admission) after God had spoken to him. Before I vote for someone I need to know whether or not he is hearing voices from God...so I really know what I'm voting for.

It wasn't Bush (or Blair) that went to war - it was the american and british geovernments mandated by congress and parliament

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman Al:

Unelected Bishops sitting in the HOL - is that democracy?

Religious influence and lobbying over science - is that democracy?

Unelected Peers in the HOL - is that also democracy?

Religious influence lobbying (a product of democracy) scientific issues that border on un-ethical and (sometimes) downright barbaric practices? Call it a moral compass, in an otherwise self-seeking, un-bridled humanistic survival of the fittest, secular, commercial pursuit!

Just remember what happened in WWII when German scientists were given free-reign!! Not forgetting old Openheimer either!!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
Just remember what happened in WWII when German scientists were given free-reign!! Not forgetting old Openheimer either!!

The point is that no-one should get automatic entry. Nazis believed they were an elite, the religious believe they are a moral elite. If not the same deal, similar.

Tony Benn's 3 questions:

Who are you?
What do you stand for?
How do I get rid of you?

Doesn't work for the unelected who believe in imaginary sky-daddies. Therefore, it's undemocratic.

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Originally posted by CDarwin:

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Because theists have the vote, and that affects me?

It's called democracy

Get over it

----------------------------------

Easy to say...not easy for the victims of the Iraq war which was declared by Blair (by his own admission) after God had spoken to him. Before I vote for someone I need to know whether or not he is hearing voices from God...so I really know what I'm voting for.

It wasn't Bush (or Blair) that went to war - it was the american and british geovernments mandated by congress and parliament

True...but Blair decided to go to war after God spoke to him....he has admitted that. My point is that when I voted for Tony Blair, I had no idea that he heard voices. Just like we need to know where people stand on certain important issues, I would like to know whether people hear voices before voting for them. I shouldn't be a secret it should be declared.....that's democracy. Religious people often show very poor judgement on many important topics...so let's be all upfront about it so we really know what we are voting for.

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:

Care to enlighten us with your insight.
Medical science is clearly in need of your assistance as it probably didn't think to cure these conditions with the 'other way' when it could use that as an excuse to muck about with genetics.

What a loss to humankind it is that you don't work in medical science.

Has this technology been used to heal any of these conditions yet... that is a genuine question?

I'm sure these forms of medical science are going to make a few men a lot of money and their names written down in the history books.

I hope that people really are helped to overcome these debilitating conditions, I really do!

Once again, I asked you a question and you failed to answer it.
There is currently no known cure to either Alzheimer's or Parkinson's so your assertion that there is 'probably another way of curing these conditions' is simply false.

Gene Therapy has already shown positives outcomes in many procedures and studies.
The purpose of Genetic research is to gain a better understanding of processes, from which cures or therapies can be developed. This is how science works.

Do you really think you are sufficiently knowledgeable in the field to make a judgment call on the likely efficacy of what might come out of this research. I know I am not.

If a scientist or medical research company manages to find a cure for such diseases which are otherwise extremely expensive to treat (or care for) why shouldn't they gain fame or fortune? That is how business works.

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:
Once again, I asked you a question and you failed to answer it.
There is currently no known cure to either Alzheimer's or Parkinson's so your assertion that there is 'probably another way of curing these conditions' is simply false.

Gene Therapy has already shown positives outcomes in many procedures and studies.
The purpose of Genetic research is to gain a better understanding of processes, from which cures or therapies can be developed. This is how science works.

Do you really think you are sufficiently knowledgeable in the field to make a judgment call on the likely efficacy of what might come out of this research. I know I am not.

If a scientist or medical research company manages to find a cure for such diseases which are otherwise extremely expensive to treat (or care for) why shouldn't they gain fame or fortune? That is how business works.

I believe that an embryo is "not a potential human being but a human being with potential"

I believe that an embryo is a human being that is sacred - made in the image and likeness of God

YOu believe - well I won't put word's in your mouth but I imagine your beliefs in this regard differ from my own.

This is the root of our difference

This is the bottom line - and any argument for or against embryonic stem cell research is ultimately going to come against this impasse.


That said however, and for what it's worth -

"Embryonic stem cells have not yet been used for even one therapy, while adult stem cells have already been successfully used in numerous patients"

Taken from Online Science & Technology magazine

I can't vouch for the bona fides of this publication in particular but I have no reason to doubt it - and I have heard and read this fact from numerous sources

THe pro-embryonic stem cell research lobby are using stem cell therapies as a Trojan horse to pass legislation re embryonic stem cells even though it is adult stem cells that hold out the momst promise because they were designed by nature for that purpose - nature's own healers

quote:

Originally posted by CDarwin:
True...but Blair decided to go to war after God spoke to him....he has admitted that. My point is that when I voted for Tony Blair, I had no idea that he heard voices. Just like we need to know where people stand on certain important issues, I would like to know whether people hear voices before voting for them. I shouldn't be a secret it should be declared.....that's democracy. Religious people often show very poor judgement on many important topics...so let's be all upfront about it so we really know what we are voting for.

You voted for Blair? Does that mean you live in the Sedgefield constituency?

We live in a representative democracy and as with any political system created by human being's (whose nature has been damaged by original sin ) it has its strengths and its weaknesses. No system is perfect. I can, therefore, but reiterate. It wasn't Blair or Bush that went to war - it was the Bristish and American Governments mandated by congress and parliament

To quote (or at least paraphrase) "Georgeous" George GAlloway

"I sat there and saw a shiver pass along the back benches parliament, looking in vain for a spine to go up"

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

quote:

Originally posted by CDarwin:
True...but Blair decided to go to war after God spoke to him....he has admitted that. My point is that when I voted for Tony Blair, I had no idea that he heard voices. Just like we need to know where people stand on certain important issues, I would like to know whether people hear voices before voting for them. I shouldn't be a secret it should be declared.....that's democracy. Religious people often show very poor judgement on many important topics...so let's be all upfront about it so we really know what we are voting for.

You voted for Blair? Does that mean you live in the Sedgefield constituency?

We live in a representative democracy and as with any political system created by human being's (whose nature has been damaged by original sin ) it has its strengths and its weaknesses. No system is perfect. I can, therefore, but reiterate. It wasn't Blair or Bush that went to war - it was the Bristish and American Governments mandated by congress and parliament

To quote (or at least paraphrase) "Georgeous" George GAlloway

"I sat there and saw a shiver pass along the back benches parliament, looking in vain for a spine to go up"

---------------------------------------

Oh I'm just old fashioned.....if there are weopons of mass destruction then I require evidence before deciding to kill and maim 300K innocent people. I think if Blair had told the truth and said we have no evidence but don't worry god has told me that we should invade Iraq then i truly believe democracy would have rolled into action.

From your replies I suspect you too hear voices...is that correct?

quote:

Originally posted by CDarwin:
Oh I'm just old fashioned.....if there are weopons of mass destruction then I require evidence before deciding to kill and maim 300K innocent people. I think if Blair had told the truth and said we have no evidence but don't worry god has told me that we should invade Iraq then i truly believe democracy would have rolled into action.

From your replies I suspect you too hear voices...is that correct?

Beware the Voices.....