quote:

Originally posted by chicken clown:
I watched this last night. Shame on Samuel's parents. They have clearly lost their way and have distorted christianity into their own peculiar belief system.

All religions are peculiar belief systems.

quote:

My stomach churned when the mother was smacking him off camera in the camper van. I am pretty sure God doesn't want us to beat our kids

Oh I don't know, I'm pretty certain there are biblical verses which allow and condone beating ones children.

C'mon we are talking about people who live their lives relying on a book, the bible, which tells how god commands some of his followers to eat oatcakes made from cow dung and to drink urine. Don't dismay for the followers though for god made the "bad" people eat oatcakes made from human excrement. Which was nice of him.

Just another example of the "wisdom" contained in that book of nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by chicken clown:
I watched this last night. Shame on Samuel's parents. They have clearly lost their way and have distorted christianity into their own peculiar belief system.

My stomach churned when the mother was smacking him off camera in the camper van. I am pretty sure God doesn't want us to beat our kids - would she accept that as morally correct if it was an adult slapping another adult? I doubt it, she would probably shout "sinner" at them.

The scene in New York where Samueal was obviously terrified and upset broke my heart. His parents need a reality check - what they are subjecting him to is cruel and uncecessary. By all means encourage an interest in religion - but don't place your child in a dangerous, frightening environment and brain wash them.

Christianity is a distorted way of life..period. Children must be discouraged to take any interest in this medievel myth. It offers nothing but lies, guilt and silly beliefs.

I watched this documentary with horror as these kids indoctrinated, isolated and brainwashed performed there routines in the name of God and was angered that the parents get away with this. What I witnessed during this documentary felt nothing less than Child Abuse. The only reason that these parents get away with this is because it is done in the name of religion. It was obvious that the biggest motivating factor of the children was the fear put into them by the parents who own ambition comes before that of their Childs well being. This documentary highlights how fundamentalism of any religion taken to extremes and absolutes ultimately leads to hatred and intolerance of anything less than complete agreement.

Unfortunately this has shown what a pantomime this form of Christianity has become with it packaged up, promoted and sold at a profit (in this case with T-shirts and other merchandise). This is nothing more than celebrity worship where the only thing that matters is the person preaching and how many dollars can be made and how quickly.

Unfortunately this isn’t the first kind of child minister; there have been others willing to cash in. This reminded me of a 1972 film documentary film Marjoe, here you will see exactly the same phenomena at work with the parents cashing in on there kid claiming that he receive messages from the divine whilst a very gullible public pays a fortune to witness and experience these so called miracles. Marjoe showed that even with years of indoctrination and abuse it is possible to break away (he exposes the whole thing for what it really is), one hopes that the kids featured here will eventually realise and achieve the same thing.

I didn't actually see the program, but it seems that these people (the parents) genuinely believe in the message being preached. If you sincerely believe the gospel message, then the only natural response is to use every means at your disposal to present that truth to the widest possible audience, using whatever means are available.
This is all good biblical teaching, and I'm afraid that this strength of reaction against the dissemination of the gospel is symptomatic of the depths to which this world has fallen.

Do you terrorise your children woolfy? Do you threatenen them that they will be burned all over and devoured by worms ('real big ones' as poor little Sam explained, saucer eyed and terrified....), do you tell them at 3 years old that its already too late becuase they have disobeyed their mother (who beates them)and that is a sin in the eyes of god?

i hope not.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by miz'd:
Do you terrorise your children woolfy? Do you threatenen them that they will be burned all over and devoured by worms ('real big ones' as poor little Sam explained, saucer eyed and terrified....), do you tell them at 3 years old that its already too late becuase they have disobeyed their mother (who beats them)and that is a sin in the eyes of god?



My children know better than to misbehave.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
My children know better than to misbehave.

'misbehaviour' is how kids find out about the world and what is possible. if they never try it, what you end up with is overly compliant, suggestible, mindless sheeple.

now, you wouldn't have got very far in life if *you'd* been like that, would you?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
I didn't actually see the program, but it seems that these people (the parents) genuinely believe in the message being preached. If you sincerely believe the gospel message, then the only natural response is to use every means at your disposal to present that truth to the widest possible audience, using whatever means are available.
This is all good biblical teaching, and I'm afraid that this strength of reaction against the dissemination of the gospel is symptomatic of the depths to which this world has fallen.

If its good bible teaching to use and abuse your kids to further the message I wonder at what point does the individual ever matter? Is it fair to isolate and keep a child under 10 working, travelling around the country because the parent’s belief tells them its Gods will? I think parents should offer a duty of care to there children until that child is old enough to decide what values and beliefs they choose if any. In this case force feeding kids the parents Truths does nothing but limit the child’s imagination and constrain there vary being. We are born with the ability to think, to reason to ask why, why does religion think its wrong of us to use them.

quote:

Originally posted by miz'd:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
My children know better than to misbehave.

'misbehaviour' is how kids find out about the world and what is possible. if they never try it, what you end up with is overly compliant, suggestible, mindless sheeple.

now, you wouldn't have got very far in life if *you'd* been like that, would you?

But why would anyone want their children to repeat the mistakes which they themselves had made?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
But why would anyone want their children to repeat the mistakes which they themselves had made?

its not about repeating anyone else's 'mistakes', but being allowed to make your own. plus one person's mistake is another person's adventure / learning process/ good idea. you want your kids to have minds of their own don't you?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
This is all good biblical teaching, and I'm afraid that this strength of reaction against the dissemination of the gospel is symptomatic of the depths to which this world has fallen.

No-one is actually objecting to christians spouting their nonsense. What people are objecting to is the methodology of using (and probably abusing) their children. All that went right over your head, didn't it. No wonder such people exist when you example how religion blinds one to reality.

I am well aware that Jesus in the NT tells his followers to go forth and spread the gospels but he also tells his disciples to steal the property of others (Luke 6:1-4, Luke 19:30-33 for instance). So it must therefore be correct to steal. But wait, Jesus says "Thou shalt not steal" (Matt 19:18). So now we have Jesus being a hypocrite and a sinner which means that he cannot be the true messiah. So much for any claim to biblical authority for morals or guidance.

Personally I think we should follow that classic piece of gospel advice from Mark 16:17-18.

"and these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sink, and they shall recover"

Oops a silly typo. It should have read:

...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"

I didn't watch this show, but it sounds unpleasant if intriguing. I have a few questions if anyone feels like answering them.

Did they mention what denominations these child preachers belonged to?

Was there any particular reason why these groups were encouraging children to preach, as opposed to having the preaching conducted by adults? Is it simply a matter of cuteness?

Was there any theological discussion within the programme, or was it just a matter of following these people around and gawping at them?

Who do these children preach to? Does the preaching have the desired efect?

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Dee:
Does the preaching have the desired efect?

Why ask that, would that excuse the deliberate abuse of a child. It seems you are saying that as long as the end is achieved the means should not be questioned. A very christian morality - Bring back the inquisition.

quote:

Originally posted by Joliet:
Oops a silly typo. It should have read:

...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"

Laying hands on the sink was funnier.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie F:
We are born with the ability to think, to reason to ask why, why does religion think its wrong of us to use them.

That great christian theologian Luther repeatedly stated that "Reason is the enemy of faith". He wasn't stupid and knew full well that Reason exposes the idiocy on which the faith is founded.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

quote:

Originally posted by Joliet:
Oops a silly typo. It should have read:

...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"

Laying hands on the sink was funnier.

But when have you followed that biblical advice to show you are a believer and, more importantly, would you recommend that other believers try it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
But why would anyone want their children to repeat the mistakes which they themselves had made?

Like the mistake of believing that a 2000 year old bronze age mythology is actually true?

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Dee:
Did they mention what denominations these child preachers belonged to?

>> not overtly, i think they belonged to the denomination of hellfire and brimstone, shouty, clappy, church of the generally poor and oppressed... but one of the churches preached at in the USA was pentecostal

quote:

Was there any particular reason why these groups were encouraging children to preach, as opposed to having the preaching conducted by adults? Is it simply a matter of cuteness?

they were all considered to have a 'gift' that they found all by themselves as infants. they were encouraged in this by their families, rather than the churches. as for their general appeal to their wider congregations, who know? cute factor, child-cultism (out of the mouths of babes type stuff, the embodiment of being without sin, etc)

quote:

Was there any theological discussion within the programme, or was it just a matter of following these people around and gawping at them?

it wasn't a theological discussion, but a documentary about child preachers, if you want to call that 'gawping'

quote:

Who do these children preach to? Does the preaching have the desired efect?

whoever their parents place them in front of. poor sam had to preach to the unhily masses of NYC who weren't slow to explain their objections to religious morality. he was sort of a street preacher, his dad walked qaround with 'repent' style billboards on his chest. another preached to large denomination pentecostal style churches where they all already believe. the brazilian girl did a lot of that and also went round state prisons where her dad had been incarcerated for undisclosed crimes, but still only to 'believers'.

i don't know what the 'desired effect' was, other than to make money in at least 2 cases....

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Woolf:

quote:

Originally posted by Joliet:
Oops a silly typo. It should have read:

...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"

Laying hands on the sink was funnier.

and more useful.

it'd be a bluddy miracle if anyone in my house (except me) were to lay their hands on the sink....

quote:

Originally posted by miz'd:
it'd be a bluddy miracle if anyone in my house (except me) were to lay their hands on the sink....

Quite right too, woman's work and well in line with your "subservient to man" role as given in the bible. Wolfie will be pleased to see you follow at least one of the tenets of his myth system.

hm. funny old mods.

The thing that struck me about the programme was the background of two of the fathers - the redneck admitted he'd been in trouble (but didn't want to talk about it) and the girl's father admitted he'd been imprisioned when a police officer. The coloured lad's mother was not on the scene, so I don't know if there were any issues there.

Anyway, one common thread I've observed is that many (although not all) born-again Christians have previously acted in exactly the same way that they now preach against. Come to think of it, isn't bin Laden described as a "former playboy" - again something he would now abhor.

I'm not (and never have been) a beleiver, but maybe one reason is because I've never lived the sort of "sinful" life that some others have. Isn't it still the case that many conversions (to Christianity or Islam) are in prison. And if that is the case, then frankly who'se example would you prefer to follow - someone who has robbed/been violent/raped/murdered/swindled/whatever, or someone who gets on with life knowing it's all there is, but who nevertheless has (perfectly natural) altrustic tendencies to his fellow beings.

That said, if I was living in what must be the living hell of a Brazilian favella, then maybe I'd be more inclined to beleive in fairies - because the "real" world would make no sense to me or anyone else. Perhaps the real challenge is to raise everyone out of that sort of existence - and that's where the Catholic church's teachings on birth control are not helping.