I think the denomination of all these children would fall loosely under the umbrella of protestantism or anglicism. I say loosely because they probably differ very much from the original doctrine of said denominations but they are the only two that they can be classed under. And I agree that it is important to specify which denomination they belong to. It's not fair to tar all Christian denominations with this most blatant of child abuse....
'Remember the time in High School when I didn't give you my baby?'
Real shame that most Americans, and most Christian Americans, are not very alarming even to ignorant and prejudiced Britons and don't make good TV.
Actually I disagree with this. For some months I attended a very ordinary Southern Baptist church in California. For a liberal Anglican like me (as I was then) I found it very alarming indeed.
Especially the bit where the wobbly opera singer sang the US national anthem to a cheesey backing track. Wobbly in her vibrato, I should point out, nothing else wobbled.
Originally posted by Heselbine: For some months I attended a very ordinary Southern Baptist church in California. For a liberal Anglican like me (as I was then) I found it very alarming indeed.
Especially the bit where the wobbly opera singer sang the US national anthem to a cheesey backing track. Wobbly in her vibrato, I should point out, nothing else wobbled.
Couldn't you find an Episcopalian church to go to, or perhaps the Unitarians? Wouldn't that have suited you better? Why did you go to a church that you found 'alarming'? Out of pure curiosity?
Originally posted by TruthTraveller: Well arent you trying to indoctrinate us with your beliefs now? Come on thats a bit extreme isnt it!
No, logic and reason are tools used to determine the validity of an argument or premise. So can you explain logically how freewill and omniscience can co-exist? A fundamental tenet on which your whole myth system relies. If you cannot then you are merely choosing to believe in something for which there is no evidence to support its validity.
One cannot prove a negative so I cannot say god does not exist. I can say that given there is no evidence to support his existence then it is close to 100% proven but I never can say it is actually 100%. However, you lot are the ones saying he does, a positive, so you must be able to prove the statement has validity or admit you are lying by claiming such.
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I think what took place in that programme was blatantly child exploitation and abuse .. but to say that all children that are taken to church by their parents are being abused is bordering on insane.
Why? Because you know full well that without that childhood indoctrination into belief systems all religions would suffer a cataclysmic fall in devotees. Like most things religion does it gets special dispensation from the disproval of society but that doesn't change what is really going on.
You might as well teach your children that the moon is made of cheese and that the Clangers really do live on a moon with a Soup Dragon as teach them there is some truth to religion. You talk of idiocy but I am not the one who clings to some bronze age invented god story and claims it has validity.
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Its a parents right and prerogative to bring their children up in the way that they see fit. That may or may not include a religion, but this is no more abusive than teaching a child about your political beliefs.. or indeed your athiesm!
There is a fundamental difference between telling a child that you don't believe in god myths and telling a child that god does exist. One is stating a fact and the other is stating an unprovable notion but implying it is fact (a lie). Can you tell which is which and see the difference.
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We teach our kids what we believe to be right, whether you believe or disbelieve in it, its a parents right to teach their children what they believe to be best for their child.
Actually I would say it is better to teach your kids the truth. Not pump them full of bronze age nonsense. Just because you believe in something does not make it true. Be honest, what actual evidence have you to support any claim to your religious truth.
The difference which you fail to realise is that I do not just choose to disbelieve as you choose to believe. I disbelieve because there is no evidence to support the proposition. In the same way I don't believe in fairies, goblins, hobbits, dragons or any other fanciful hang-over from the uneducated ancestry of our species. Show me the evidence and I'll believe.
Anyway, I refer you back to what your own religious teaching says - it is for the individual to accept your god into their lives - Where does it say in your book of nonsense that you should indocrinate them to believe? Nowhere.
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I personally believe that bringing my children up with Christian values, to love and care for others, to do good in the world and to emulate the life of Jesus Christ isnt actually a bad set of principals to live by.
Aside from the Jesus part it is fine bringing them up with those ideals but do you think non believers bring up their children by any lesser standards of behaviour towards others. Do you truly believe that only those who believe in some god myth are morally sound or good parents.
As for emulating Jesus. So lying, stealing, bigotry and intolerance, etc. are good things to emulate are they? After all Jesus does all those and more. Do you want the verse nos? Did you teach your kids to do all those things too. Or did you just ignore those instances which the bible contains.
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Yes I am a Christian. My children when they were old enough however were and are free to make their own minds up.
Only one in fact has stayed with the church, one dabled in budhism and says now she is 'spiritual' but non-denominational and the other is agnostic. Anyone who knows my children will certainly say they are able to think for themselves .. despite initially being brought up in the Christian faith.
I never said that such indocrination always works but it certainly gives the subject a bias to believe in religious myth. So of your three children we have two successes and one failure. Looks like proof that such subtle indocrination works.
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This is hardlyt on a par with a seven year old preaching hellfire and damnation!
Why to make your argument are you implying I said something I didn't. I did state quite clearly that it was not comparable or "on a par" to those extreme examples. Is your argument so bereft that you must invent to make it.
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Fortunately such beliefs within the Christian church are only a very small minority.. and actually such beliefs are in conflict with the new testament and more liberal Christians of today that believe and practice "God is Love"
Yeah, the same ones who ignore all those verses from the same book which don't imply or tell such a pretty story about your man-god.
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There are millions of well adjusted, caring, responsible adults today that have grown up in loving Christian homes that would probably think the suggestion that they were "abused" and "indoctrinated" shocking and laughable .. myself included
Abuse is such an emotive term when applied to children. However, that does not change what occurs. If anyone with half a brain cell actually thinks about what I actually wrote then they will see there is sense and correctness therein.
To imply that the abuse which I mention is in someway equatable to the more commonly held view of what constitutes "Child Abuse" is disingenuous and dishonest of you.
Anyway for laughable, let's see how you explain the concept of freewill/omniscience or answer the other comments I made regarding your perfect, morally good, Jesus.
Originally posted by Justin M: This just isn't the case. Honestly, you just can't generalise about monotheism, polytheism, henotheism etc etc. Each religious tradition has to be taken on its own terms.
Care to name a polytheistic mythology which had a monotheistic "heaven/hell" setup and for which personal sin was attributable to where one ended up. Be aware, I will check.
One cannot prove a negative so I cannot say god does not exist. I can say that given there is no evidence to support his existence then it is close to 100% proven but I never can say it is actually 100%. However, you lot are the ones saying he does, a positive, so you must be able to prove the statement has validity or admit you are lying by claiming such.
Hi Joliet .. just what kind of proof would be acceptable to you .. that is assuming that I would want to prove anything to you anyway (I dont!). All I have ever claimed is that God exists for me. Its your prerogative, and everyone elses for that matter to believe what they want.
The belief in spirituality (and I am largely non-denominational in my beliefs) or the existence of "God" for want of a better word is through internal experience. No one is ever going to take you to God's house and say "there he is". No one can give you material proof (the only kind that you would accept) for spirituality. No more than someone can point a finger and say "look there is love". But it is certainly felt quite powerfully sometimes. That doesnt make my internal experiences of connection any less proof because you are blinkered to this kind of experience or literally cannot conceive of anything that you cannot touch, hear or see. So you assume if you cant conceive of it then its not true .. and thats okay. I only know what works for me. That does not give you the right to try and rubbish what you dont believe or cannot conceive of.
QUOTE Actually I would say it is better to teach your kids the truth. Not pump them full of bronze age nonsense. Just because you believe in something does not make it true. Be honest, what actual evidence have you to support any claim to your religious truth. UNQUOTE
Yes and the same goes for someone that believes in nothing at all doesnt it? .. its still an indoctrinating belief isnt it?
All any of us can do to teach children what we believe to be right. It is YOUR OPINION that it is all just bronze age nonsence (and I would agree with you to a certain degree that a lot of the dogma around organised religion is) I know, from my own internal experiences and the tangible effects I have seen from prayer, that there is a spirituality to existence. I am as convinced of that as I am of my own existence. No one would attempt to or in fact would probably even want to convince anyone else, as its a personal thing
I would actually view it as a term of abuse to instill in a child that there is nothing more to them than their material bodies, that they will die and be burried and that there is nothing more to them than that. I dont believe that to be true. I would rather my children had a sense of the inter-connectedness of life, a sense of universal loving principal and that there was "that of God" in all living things because I believe it to be true. My own moments of meditation, inspiration and sense of Love that is bellied out in my experience and that yes .. may be nonesense to you, are all the proof I need.
You dont agree.. thats fine! I have no wish to convince you, but I felt your post warranted an answer
Originally posted by TruthTraveller: No more than someone can point a finger and say "look there is love". But it is certainly felt quite powerfully sometimes.
but 'love' can be understood in terms of attraction, and bonding, and companionship etc etc etc with another person. 'god' can only be understood by internalised (self) reference, framed more or less by doctrine. thats two very different things. in my view, 'god' is the cultural manifestation of psychological processes to do with understanding and regulating the self and relationships with others.
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I would actually view it as a term of abuse to instill in a child that there is nothing more to them than their material bodies, that they will die and be burried and that there is nothing more to them than that.
i find that astonishing. i didn't impose my children's mortality on them before they were able to understand it, and they know that some people believe differently; but yes, they've never been brought up to understand anything other than that death is the end of life. do you really think i have in some way inflicted 'abuse' upon them? of course they are / have been free to make their own choices, but the only time they have ever shown any interest in 'heaven' existing, was when our pet cat died when they were quite young. and so i return to religion and god essentially being about human psychology, nothing more.
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I would rather my children had a sense of the inter-connectedness of life, a sense of universal loving principal
well i feel i've raised my children with some of that, to respect and value others, to recognise themselves as part of the human race, living on this planet etc, but why does anyone need a god in that world view?
Originally posted by Justin M: This just isn't the case. Honestly, you just can't generalise about monotheism, polytheism, henotheism etc etc. Each religious tradition has to be taken on its own terms.
Care to name a polytheistic mythology which had a monotheistic "heaven/hell" setup and for which personal sin was attributable to where one ended up. Be aware, I will check.
I could be cheeky and mention christianity, which with the trinity is actually a thinly disguised form of polytheism. But I won't.
Just a couple of examples -there are more.
1. The ancient Egyptians believed that the heart of the dead was weighed on a balance against Ma’at’s feather. Ma’at was the goddess of truth. If the heart weighed less than the feather the dead went to paradise. If the heart weighed more that the feather then Ammut, a demonic goddess with the head of a crocodile proceeded to devour the dead. This meant that the dead lost all existence, which was the most horrible fate for an Egyptian.
2. In Norse mythology Niflheim was ruled by the goddess Hel. Niflheim consisted of several levels. One level was designed for heroes and gods, where Hel would preside over the festivities for them. Another was reserved for the elderly, the sick, and those who were unable to die gloriously in battle and enter Valhalla. The lowest level was similar to the Christian version of Hell, a horrible place where the wicked ended up.
i find that astonishing. i didn't impose my children's mortality on them before they were able to understand it, and they know that some people believe differently; but yes, they've never been brought up to understand anything other than that death is the end of life. do you really think i have in some way inflicted 'abuse' upon them? of course they are / have been free to make their own choices, but the only time they have ever shown any interest in 'heaven' existing, was when our pet cat died when they were quite young. and so i return to religion and god essentially being about human psychology, nothing more.
Jeez, Miz: You're all heart: Not only do you inflict "mortality" on your kids, but when they come to you in tears about their dead cat, looking for comfort and reassurance...... "Aw, Mummy: Will Tiddles be in Heaven with Grandma, now?" "No, kids, that's it: Finito. All over. Your cat's dead, and you'll never see it again. Get over it."
What time is it, Mr Woolf? Time to mend your ways, for the end is nigh.
One cannot prove a negative so I cannot say god does not exist. I can say that given there is no evidence to support his existence then it is close to 100% proven but I never can say it is actually 100%. However, you lot are the ones saying he does, a positive, so you must be able to prove the statement has validity or admit you are lying by claiming such.
Hi Joliet .. just what kind of proof would be acceptable to you .. that is assuming that I would want to prove anything to you anyway (I dont!). All I have ever claimed is that God exists for me. Its your prerogative, and everyone elses for that matter to believe what they want.
The belief in spirituality (and I am largely non-denominational in my beliefs) or the existence of "God" for want of a better word is through internal experience. No one is ever going to take you to God's house and say "there he is". No one can give you material proof (the only kind that you would accept) for spirituality. No more than someone can point a finger and say "look there is love". But it is certainly felt quite powerfully sometimes. That doesnt make my internal experiences of connection any less proof because you are blinkered to this kind of experience or literally cannot conceive of anything that you cannot touch, hear or see. So you assume if you cant conceive of it then its not true .. and thats okay. I only know what works for me. That does not give you the right to try and rubbish what you dont believe or cannot conceive of.
QUOTE Actually I would say it is better to teach your kids the truth. Not pump them full of bronze age nonsense. Just because you believe in something does not make it true. Be honest, what actual evidence have you to support any claim to your religious truth. UNQUOTE
Yes and the same goes for someone that believes in nothing at all doesnt it? .. its still an indoctrinating belief isnt it?
All any of us can do to teach children what we believe to be right. It is YOUR OPINION that it is all just bronze age nonsence (and I would agree with you to a certain degree that a lot of the dogma around organised religion is) I know, from my own internal experiences and the tangible effects I have seen from prayer, that there is a spirituality to existence. I am as convinced of that as I am of my own existence. No one would attempt to or in fact would probably even want to convince anyone else, as its a personal thing
I would actually view it as a term of abuse to instill in a child that there is nothing more to them than their material bodies, that they will die and be burried and that there is nothing more to them than that. I dont believe that to be true. I would rather my children had a sense of the inter-connectedness of life, a sense of universal loving principal and that there was "that of God" in all living things because I believe it to be true. My own moments of meditation, inspiration and sense of Love that is bellied out in my experience and that yes .. may be nonesense to you, are all the proof I need.
You dont agree.. thats fine! I have no wish to convince you, but I felt your post warranted an answer
Hey, Truth Traveller: Excellent post. Of course, you realise that to have the Woolf Man agree with you is like the kiss of death?
What time is it, Mr Woolf? Time to mend your ways, for the end is nigh.
Originally posted by Mr Woolf: Jeez, Miz: You're all heart: Not only do you inflict "mortality" on your kids, but when they come to you in tears about their dead cat, looking for comfort and reassurance...... "Aw, Mummy: Will Tiddles be in Heaven with Grandma, now?" "No, kids, that's it: Finito. All over. Your cat's dead, and you'll never see it again. Get over it."
Originally posted by Mr Woolf: Jeez, Miz: You're all heart: Not only do you inflict "mortality" on your kids, but when they come to you in tears about their dead cat, looking for comfort and reassurance...... "Aw, Mummy: Will Tiddles be in Heaven with Grandma, now?" "No, kids, that's it: Finito. All over. Your cat's dead, and you'll never see it again. Get over it."
it wasn't quite like that....
Of course it wasn't, Miz.
What time is it, Mr Woolf? Time to mend your ways, for the end is nigh.
Originally posted by TruthTraveller: I know, from my own internal experiences and the tangible effects I have seen from prayer, that there is a spirituality to existence.
The power of prayer. Have you ever prayed for something that cannot happen without the intervention of, say, an omnipotent deity, and had it happen. Why do you suppose it is that all the answered prayers are things that could have happened anyway. Xians pray for people to get better. They get better. But they never regrow limbs. Do you believe your god only help man if prayed to. He doesn't just do the right thing even if no-one is asking for it. What if two groups pray for mutually exclusive outcomes? How does you god decide which groups prayers to answer? Have you ever even considered these questions, or how idiotic the conclusions must be. Do you believe in the power of prayer is sufficient to alter an outcome. Do you believe this would be measurable?
Do tell, what are the 'tangible' effects of prayer you have experienced?
