I am proposing an experiment to allow god to reveal himself conclusively to all us atheists.
Here's what I propose. Next Friday (26th October) at midday, we all sincerely pray that god will reveal himself to us in such a way as to remove any debate. A clear picture of Jesus written on a cloud, that sort of thing. The point is, it has to happen at exactly midday and it has to be reported in next day's national papers. Only then can we be sure it wasn't a sign meant for someone else.
If there's a natural explanation for it, it doesn't count. It has to be something truly spectacularly supernatural.
This is the last chance I will ever give for god to prove that he exists to me. Therefore, if there is a god, and he misses the opportunity, it will be entirely his fault if I don't make heaven.
So, who's in? You have to do it sincerely. No jokers please.
you need to be more specific about what a putative god would need to do. (Vague predictions are more likely to be filled).
And I'm quite happy with my test of any gods. So far, every one has failed it, and all the christians have dismissed it as "that's not how god works" but without telling me why, or how they know, or in what way god does work.
Until they do, my test remains valid (and still live, btw. If any new theists want to take it, feel free).
Originally posted by Heselbine:So, who's in? You have to do it sincerely. No jokers please.
This is the kind of thing I did when I was younger; "Right, god, I'm going to count to three" - I'd say between clenched teeth and intertwined pre-pubescent pinkies - "then I'm going to open my eyes and I need to see a sign".
Course, never happened.
Perhaps, as you suggest, ten more people praying at the same time may encourage god to 'hear' us. But then, it *is* supposed to be god, right? I'm pretty sure "he" wouldn't need a hearing aid ...
Nah, thanks Hessie, but god's got enough chance to show himself. Like, for example, stopping the countless deaths of young African children due to war, pestilence etc etc.
Originally posted by Heselbine: Here's what I propose. Next Friday (26th October) at midday, we all sincerely pray that god will reveal himself to us in such a way as to remove any debate.
How could an atheist pray 'sincerely' to something we just don't accept exists. How's about pairing up, theist with atheist? That way that could be no doubt that there was an earnest and sincere pleading.
Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him (to prove he is the son of God) by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times..."
...and then again from one of his own disciples:
John 20:24-29 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came (appearing alive after the resurrection). So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Unfortunately this just reinforces the fiction of the bible as the nails were not driven through the hands .
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: Hesslebine your plea sounds kinda familiar:
Firstly from the religious leaders of Jesus' day:
Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him (to prove he is the son of God) by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times..."
...and then again from one of his own disciples:
John 20:24-29 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came (appearing alive after the resurrection). So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Yes, and what happens in the second example? There is doubt and the doubt is answered. So are you saying we too can expect an answer?
Ok, I’m for it, which of the cheap theatricals are we going for, pillar of fire, pillar of cloud, or perhaps the old burning bush trick? Knowing what a grumpy old sod he is we’ll probably all end up covered in boils with a house full of frogs and locusts.
Originally posted by Gand: Ok, I’m for it, which of the cheap theatricals are we going for, pillar of fire, pillar of cloud, or perhaps the old burning bush trick? Knowing what a grumpy old sod he is we’ll probably all end up covered in boils with a house full of frogs and locusts.
How about a shower of frogs? No, not good enough. How about a shower of burning frogs? Hmmm. I know, how about a shower of burning purple frogs? At exactly midday. If there were a shower of burning purple frogs at midday next Friday I will instantly and permanently convert back to christianity.
Originally posted by Heselbine: How about a shower of frogs? No, not good enough. How about a shower of burning frogs? Hmmm. I know, how about a shower of burning purple frogs? At exactly midday. If there were a shower of burning purple frogs at midday next Friday I will instantly and permanently convert back to christianity.
Not good enough I’m afraid. There is a breed of purple frog to be found in India. Now imagine if there was a huge volcanic explosion under the habitat of these poor little suckers, blasting them up high up into space and placing them in a low orbit, until finally they are drawn back down by the earth’s gravitational pull, where they would then come raining down, still burning from the heat of re-entry. This highly plausible event provides a perfectly logical explanation for the scenario you describe, without the intervention of any mystical forces.
Originally posted by Heselbine: How about a shower of frogs? No, not good enough. How about a shower of burning frogs? Hmmm. I know, how about a shower of burning purple frogs? At exactly midday. If there were a shower of burning purple frogs at midday next Friday I will instantly and permanently convert back to christianity.
Not good enough I’m afraid. There is a breed of purple frog to be found in India. Now imagine if there was a huge volcanic explosion under the habitat of these poor little suckers, blasting them up high up into space and placing them in a low orbit, until finally they are drawn back down by the earth’s gravitational pull, where they would then come raining down, still burning from the heat of re-entry. This highly plausible event provides a perfectly logical explanation for the scenario you describe, without the intervention of any mystical forces.
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Unfortunately this just reinforces the fiction of the bible as the nails were not driven through the hands .
Free_thinker I think you should probably change your alias to blinkered_thinker. Because rather than consider what these scriptures may mean in the context of this thread (like, I think, Heselbine), you immediately look for an 'off on a tangent' type of problem with the Bible.
So, as this thread is not about that then I suggest you either start another one or consult google a bit more widely than wikkipedia.
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: Hesslebine your plea sounds kinda familiar:
Firstly from the religious leaders of Jesus' day:
Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him (to prove he is the son of God) by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times..."
...and then again from one of his own disciples:
John 20:24-29 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came (appearing alive after the resurrection). So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Yes, and what happens in the second example? There is doubt and the doubt is answered. So are you saying we too can expect an answer?
I would have thought you'd want us to pray?
Firstly it's important to state that Jesus knows what's truly in your heart, so his response will be different in different contexts. For example, are you a real seeker for the truth or do you home in to supposed 'problems' to confirm/validate your existing entrenched position???
In the first example Jesus was challenging the Jewish religious leaders to basically 'go back and re-read the manual'. What I mean is that the pharisees were old testament experts, thus they would have known the messianic prophecies, thus they should have known already who Jesus was from the signs they had already seen. But sadly the pharisees were well known for being "blind-guides", "hypocrites" and "nullifying the word of God for the sake of their own tradition"
In the second example Thomas, a devoted follower of Jesus, who had supported Jesus up until now was not rejecting out of hand that Jesus was alive but had real problems believing so wanted to see/feel for himself. And when Jesus appears to him that alone is enough for him (without touching Jesus' wounds) to declare Jesus to be both Lord and God - an amazing admission.
So who are you more like - the pharisees or Thomas? Are you blind and unwilling to change, or do you have a few doubts but willing to believe if God responds in some way to your heart felt pleas?
So there's no point asking for a sign because if I'm already a believer I won't need one, and if I'm not I won't get one because I'm not being sincere?
I'm not being sarcastic - this is a genuine attempt at understanding.
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: Free_thinker I think you should probably change your alias to blinkered_thinker. Because rather than consider what these scriptures may mean in the context of this thread (like, I think, Heselbine), you immediately look for an 'off on a tangent' type of problem with the Bible.
The context of the thread is to request some real, unequivocal evidence of the existence of a god. You have provided a quote from an old book and believe it represents something that really happened. Any error in the report damages the veracity of the whole record. If part of it is not true, all of it could be untrue. This is not an 'off the tangent' problem, this goes to the heart of the evidence.
For me it is rather more significant that you have chosen not to accept this challenge, team up with someone, pray for such as sign to be shown to them and welcome them into the fold. Whatcha waiting for?
Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree: So who are you more like - the pharisees or Thomas? Are you blind and unwilling to change, or do you have a few doubts but willing to believe if God responds in some way to your heart felt pleas?
I have a few doubts. I think Jesus and his crew are fictional characters in a messianic myth. At least that's what fits the evidence best. I think God is imaginary, because again that's what fits the evidence best. But apart from just those two doubts, I'm ready to believe! It would be my heartfelt plea to him to cure every child of cancer. Next Friday, as Heselbine suggests. Now what can be wrong with that unselfish request?
Now, how do I go about talking to him? I mean, communication channels and all? Obviously I can't just throw my hands in the air and "appeal to the sky" because any old god might be listening. How will I know it's him I'm talking to and not Thor or Ra?
TTSYF, maybe you're best placed to do it for us, seeing as you already have a channel open to him. After all, if we're going to make this request, we might as well use the best person available. I take it you wouldn't be averse to sending this prayer on up on our behalf? - Could you let us know either way in case you are not willing to do it we can find someone else instead? Thanks!
I'm getting quite excited about this, as this could just be the beginning. Next we could ask for an end to famine, war, disease, natural disasters and bad things happening to good people. But better not get ahead of ourselves, eh?
i think this would be cool, it could be really big, im looking forward to seeing the looks on your faces when the burning purple frogs land except of course i cant see your faces can i?
ill be the someone else if ttsyf wont do it, how about it?
Originally posted by katestwinsister: ill be the someone else if ttsyf wont do it, how about it?
I'm in. You and I pray tonight that when we wake up on Monday morning, all children under the age of 10 suffering from any sort of illness or disability have gone into spontaneous, permanent remission (including amputees).
If it happens, I will sign up for any church you wish, and make a large donation to the charity of your choice.
