So you want to suspend your disblief in god, and ask him to provide supernatural evidence of his existence.

Sounds like a noble pursuit, but :

- God, if he exists at all, isn't human, and doesn't operate on our terms, so if he responds, he could choose to do so in a way which isn't what you're looking for. He might want to do it through already existing phenomena like the weather or something equally "everyday"

- Also, he might choose not to respond at all, knowing that you don't really believe, or at the very least, refusing your request on the grounds that you're trying to cause mischief

- He might reveal himself to you in a totally subjective way, like in a dream, where you end up "knowing", and then you'll be a frustrated believer, never being able to prove it

And if he doesn't reveal himself, will your belief cease, or will you continue to believe even with no proof, as millions do? In other words, can you trust yourself to sincerely make yourself believe? And if so, how does one make that change? Also, would doing this exercise make you wonder what makesa believer believe?

It's a good subject, and a good thread. Raises loads of questions.

it kind of seemed like a joke but then seemed to have a serious side to it

if God responded by using the weather or something everyday, how would that be different from the weather just being different?

how can i really know? i have some pretty weird dreams which i wont go into on a public chat forum and i cant imagine really knowing something like this - what if my minds playing tricks how would that look different

the last bit is a bit mindblowing - can we choose to believe or not, i dont know ive never tried it one or the other i just do

So your god only manifests itself in ways indistinguishable from not manifesting itself, it doesn't manifest itself at all, or it only does so in your imagination.

I think we agree!

Now, I have a very simple explanation for this. Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by katestwinsister:
wow thats a biggy - you know i dont think it would work. burning purple frogs is one thing. i think if God wanted to do that hed have done it by now

Why wouldn't it work?

Surely any entity worthy of the name "god" would a) be able to do that and b) would want to.

So why wouldn't it work?

Alternatively, why are you worshipping an entity that enjoys watching children die?

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:
So your god only manifests itself in ways indistinguishable from not manifesting itself, it doesn't manifest itself at all, or it only does so in your imagination.

I think we agree!

Now, I have a very simple explanation for this. Do you?

i think i can kind of see where this is going

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:

Why wouldn't it work?

Surely any entity worthy of the name "god" would a) be able to do that and b) would want to.

So why wouldn't it work?

Alternatively, why are you worshipping an entity that enjoys watching children die?

ouch

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:

Alternatively, why are you worshipping an entity that enjoys watching children die?

ok, what if God doesnt enjoy watching children die, could intervene but theres some greater purpose which stops him - but hang on then he wouldnt be all-powerful would he? this is getting very confusing

quote:

Originally posted by katestwinsister:
if God responded by using the weather or something everyday, how would that be different from the weather just being different?

Bravo.

quote:

how can i really know? i have some pretty weird dreams which i wont go into on a public chat forum and i cant imagine really knowing something like this - what if my minds playing tricks how would that look different

Bravo

quote:

the last bit is a bit mindblowing - can we choose to believe or not, i dont know ive never tried it one or the other i just do

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by katestwinsister:
ok, what if God doesnt enjoy watching children die, could intervene but theres some greater purpose which stops him - but hang on then he wouldnt be all-powerful would he? this is getting very confusing

Yep. Omnimax doesn't make a lot of sense when you actually try and look at it.

Keep pulling those threads.

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:

quote:

Originally posted by katestwinsister:
if God responded by using the weather or something everyday, how would that be different from the weather just being different?

Bravo.

quote:

how can i really know? i have some pretty weird dreams which i wont go into on a public chat forum and i cant imagine really knowing something like this - what if my minds playing tricks how would that look different

Bravo

quote:

the last bit is a bit mindblowing - can we choose to believe or not, i dont know ive never tried it one or the other i just do

Why?

sorry my brain hurts im going to bed ta-ra

quote:

Originally posted by katestwinsister:
it kind of seemed like a joke but then seemed to have a serious side to it

if God responded by using the weather or something everyday, how would that be different from the weather just being different?

how can i really know? i have some pretty weird dreams which i wont go into on a public chat forum and i cant imagine really knowing something like this - what if my minds playing tricks how would that look different

the last bit is a bit mindblowing - can we choose to believe or not, i dont know ive never tried it one or the other i just do

Can we choose whether to believe or not? As a non believer I don’t feel able to choose to believe and I am pretty sure that those who are true believers cannot choose not to believe, it seems to me we are victims of conditioning and the way our minds work, if so, that probably kicks free will in the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Heselbine:

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:

Fair enough, I accept what you're saying here.

So there's no point asking for a sign because if I'm already a believer I won't need one, and if I'm not I won't get one because I'm not being sincere?

I'm not being sarcastic - this is a genuine attempt at understanding.

Well, yes, I believe God responds to doubters - provided they are sincere truth seekers (...though...not sure why anyone would be insincere when seeking the truth??). I mean it's good and right to want genuine questions answered in relation to the 'God' issue. After all, if God created the mind then I assume that he expects us to use it - not disconnect it.

Having said that, yes the mind is a wonderful tool, but pride can sometimes elevate it above it's station. For instance, when we were children most of us constantly asked our parents 'why-why-why' and on the whole were able to learn from the answers our parents gave. But on occasions explanations were hard to understand - and at that point we needed to humble ourselves and trust that our parents were speaking the truth, so accept the answer given. I believe that's the same with God - there are times when we need to simply accept/trust (=faith) that what he has said is the truth even if we can't get our heads around it.

For instance, in Eden God gave Adam and Eve free will (we're not robots) and them set them a test of obedience to see how they would use it. He told them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, and if they did the consequences would not be good (incidentally, they had plenty of other trees to eat from so it wasn't really a temptation). That was all they were told. So, they had a choice - do they have faith in God / trust he was speaking the truth and had their best at heart? or do they decide God was telling a lie and being a fun spoiler? Well, as you know, they thought they knew better than God and chose the latter.

Heselbine, or anyone else for that fact - have you ever sincerely/genuinely/honestly/humbly asked God to reveal himself to you?

quote:

Originally posted by free_thinker:

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
Free_thinker I think you should probably change your alias to blinkered_thinker. Because rather than consider what these scriptures may mean in the context of this thread (like, I think, Heselbine), you immediately look for an 'off on a tangent' type of problem with the Bible.

The context of the thread is to request some real, unequivocal evidence of the existence of a god.
You have provided a quote from an old book and believe it represents something that really happened. Any error in the report damages the veracity of the whole record.
If part of it is not true, all of it could be untrue. This is not an 'off the tangent' problem, this goes to the heart of the evidence.

For me it is rather more significant that you have chosen not to accept this challenge, team up with someone, pray for such as sign to be shown to them and welcome them into the fold.
Whatcha waiting for?

Well yes I agree that a definite error in the text of the Bible would seriously undermine the validity of the rest of the book. I guess I was just a bit put out that you evaded the thrust of what I was saying.

If I were able to find an answer to this 'nail' question for you would you believe? I doubt it - you would probably deliberately hunt the web for 50 other so called 'problems' with the bible. And if I spent hours providing answers for these you would hunt for 50 more until I gave up trying. And if I were to show you miraculous proof - a healing for example - I'm pretty sure you would find a way not to believe. Here's another surprising account, this time of how the pharisees responded when they actually 'saw' a miracle in front of their eyes:

Luke 6:6-11
On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone." So he got up and stood there. Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?" He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was completely restored. But they were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by blast99:

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
So who are you more like - the pharisees or Thomas? Are you blind and unwilling to change, or do you have a few doubts but willing to believe if God responds in some way to your heart felt pleas?

I have a few doubts. I think Jesus and his crew are fictional characters in a messianic myth. At least that's what fits the evidence best. I think God is imaginary, because again that's what fits the evidence best. But apart from just those two doubts, I'm ready to believe! It would be my heartfelt plea to him to cure every child of cancer. Next Friday, as Heselbine suggests. Now what can be wrong with that unselfish request?

Now, how do I go about talking to him? I mean, communication channels and all? Obviously I can't just throw my hands in the air and "appeal to the sky" because any old god might be listening. How will I know it's him I'm talking to and not Thor or Ra?

TTSYF, maybe you're best placed to do it for us, seeing as you already have a channel open to him. After all, if we're going to make this request, we might as well use the best person available. I take it you wouldn't be averse to sending this prayer on up on our behalf? - Could you let us know either way in case you are not willing to do it we can find someone else instead? Thanks!

I'm getting quite excited about this, as this could just be the beginning. Next we could ask for an end to famine, war, disease, natural disasters and bad things happening to good people. But better not get ahead of ourselves, eh?

I think if us humans put aside our petty squabbles and got our act together we could pretty much sort out most of the world's problems without God's help at all. Maybe every time we ask God to solve the world's problems he's shouting back at us "come on you lot - the keys are in your hands - get on with it!!" But no, because we spend so much of our energies lining our pockets with more money / craving power etc that's unlikely ever to happen.

Hay, I tell you what. If the whole world were to actually take to heart how Jesus told us to live ("love your neighbour", "forgive those who wrong you", "treat others as you would have them treat you", "be each others servant", "bless and do not curse", "give to those who ask you", "become humble like little children", "blessed are the peace makers" etc, etc, etc) then maybe the world would be an entirely different place? What if humanity were to try that experiment? Would you say that was worth a shot? Or failing that, what if next Friday just the group of us went out to our local towns and carried out RAKs? (random acts of kindness)

Why should God answer our prayers to sort out the world's problems when he's already given us the where-with-all to solve them ourselves?

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:

Heselbine, have you ever sincerely/genuinely/honestly/humbly asked God to reveal himself to you?

Oh yes, indeed I have. And I kidded myself he'd responded. It's easy to do.

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:

Surprising how none of the christians want to sign up for this isn't it? What would the reason for that be?

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
Well yes I agree that a definite error in the text of the Bible would seriously undermine the validity of the rest of the book.

Well sorry to disappoint you but there are hundreds.

quote:

If I were able to find an answer to this 'nail' question for you would you believe? I doubt it - you would probably deliberately hunt the web for 50 other so called 'problems' with the bible.

The problems are not 'so called' they are straight simple errors, plain and simple.

quote:

And if I spent hours providing answers for these you would hunt for 50 more until I gave up trying.

Yes but you would not find answers. You might find excuses, equivocations and lies but no answers.
Flat earth, bats are birds, sun stands still, chronology, genealogy, cosmology in general the list is extensive. It's not even internally consistent.

quote:

And if I were to show you miraculous proof - a healing for example - I'm pretty sure you would find a way not to believe.

If something, such as a healing, does have a reasonable, natural explanation why should I need a supernatural one. Let's take miraculous healing. Just how many of the millions of sick people who have been to Lourdes were cured 'miraculously'? How many of those had a physical cure such as a limb regrowth?
If god can 'cure' people with 'internal' problems like cancer, why can he not cure people with missing limbs? Why can he only do those things that do not absolutely, without question, demonstrate his power?

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
Hay, I tell you what. If the whole world were to actually take to heart how Jesus told us to live ("love your neighbour", "forgive those who wrong you", "treat others as you would have them treat you", "be each others servant", "bless and do not curse", "give to those who ask you", "become humble like little children", "blessed are the peace makers" etc, etc, etc) then maybe the world would be an entirely different place?

Sure, but Jesus tells us that if we pray to him he will answer our prayers, and my prayer suggestion was to cure childhood cancer. Last time I looked, being humble and nice to one and all doesn't actually achieve that. Fancy another go at squirming your way out of why your God prefers those children to die?

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
Hay, I tell you what. If the whole world were to actually take to heart how Jesus told us to live ("love your neighbour", "forgive those who wrong you", "treat others as you would have them treat you", "be each others servant", "bless and do not curse", "give to those who ask you", "become humble like little children", "blessed are the peace makers" etc, etc, etc) then maybe the world would be an entirely different place? What if humanity were to try that experiment? Would you say that was worth a shot? Or failing that, what if next Friday just the group of us went out to our local towns and carried out RAKs? (random acts of kindness)

Why should God answer our prayers to sort out the world's problems when he's already given us the where-with-all to solve them ourselves?

And this is about the best case for secular humanism you could make.

There is nothing in your list that could not be advocated by a humanist or for that matter any ethical person.

If indeed we all did as advocated and only that, we would have a moral, religion free planet.

[Aside: I just posted a comment with "p00f" - as in "and p00f! it disappeared in smoke" in it, and it was proscribed for moderation ]

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:
For instance, in Eden God gave Adam and Eve free will (we're not robots) and them set them a test of obedience..

isn't that a little bit sick.

quote:

Originally posted by thetruthsetsyoufree:

For instance, in Eden God gave Adam and Eve free will (we're not robots) and them set them a test of obedience to see how they would use it. He told them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, and if they did the consequences would not be good (incidentally, they had plenty of other trees to eat from so it wasn't really a temptation). That was all they were told. So, they had a choice - do they have faith in God / trust he was speaking the truth and had their best at heart? or do they decide God was telling a lie and being a fun spoiler? Well, as you know, they thought they knew better than God and chose the latter.

The only re