Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
You could try asking Him, I guess. Don't be surprised if you don't get a reply. He seems a little shy and only seems to talk to the converted. Between you and me, I think He might not actually exist
Ok, perhaps I haven't been clear here. First my position is as a 'bright' (i.e. atheist) and the question was intended as an exercise in logic, philosophy, call it what you like. I would prefer replies to address the issue rather than debate the existence of god. This also goes for my previous topic too.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Ok, perhaps I haven't been clear here. First my position is as a 'bright' (i.e. atheist) and the question was intended as an exercise in logic, philosophy, call it what you like. I would prefer replies to address the issue rather than debate the existence of god. This also goes for my previous topic too.
I rather think you are unlikely to have your wish fulfilled.
These sort of questions are unanswerable. The best you could expect is a very unsatisfactory 'god moves in mysterious ways' or even the wonderful 'god made the laws of logic so isn't subject to them' avoidance.
The question of omniscience vs free will (which is what your questions is) is one that has taxed the minds of a great many theologians over time and no-one has ever had a satisfactory answer. That itself speaks volumes.
I look forward to any answers you might get, but don't hold your breath or expect anything in any way logically satisfactory.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Ok, perhaps I haven't been clear here. First my position is as a 'bright' (i.e. atheist) and the question was intended as an exercise in logic, philosophy, call it what you like. I would prefer replies to address the issue rather than debate the existence of god. This also goes for my previous topic too.
The answer is contained in your question. If, as you state, all of the future is already known - then it is written, as we say in the east, and cannot be changed.
Incidentally, what it the purpose of this question since you say you are an atheist? I know you dress it up as an exercise in logic or philosophy, but it seems pretty pointless to me.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
You could try asking Him, I guess.
Good idea.
...and could you ask him to get me a Mercedes Benz while you're at it.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
Just out of interest, are you an atheist who's looking for a reason to believe in god? I'm trying to understand your motivation for asking these questions.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
I reckon there is plenty you can do, and by the way, that too is known by God, such that even if you manage to change the outcome, it would still be something he knew since before the beginning.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
I reckon there is plenty you can do, and by the way, that too is known by God, such that even if you manage to change the outcome, it would still be something he knew since before the beginning.
If god already knows that you've changed your mind, then you didn't make that decision from free will. If god knows everything you will do, it is preordained and there is nothing you can do about it. An omniscient god and freewill are mutually exclusive.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
I reckon there is plenty you can do, and by the way, that too is known by God, such that even if you manage to change the outcome, it would still be something he knew since before the beginning.
Well there you go, kinda what I predicted. No contorted thinking there then. So you change the outcome, but god knew you would do that, so... you still did what god knew would happen... so you didn't change the outcome.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
I reckon there is plenty you can do, and by the way, that too is known by God, such that even if you manage to change the outcome, it would still be something he knew since before the beginning.
Well there you go, kinda what I predicted. No contorted thinking there then. So you change the outcome, but god knew you would do that, so... you still did what god knew would happen... so you didn't change the outcome.
But wanting to know what God knows or having a guess at it then acting to either negate it or confirm it is a bit 'o' contorted thinking as well. Which is what the original question amounts to in a way.
Originally posted by Louisa_Maria: But wanting to know what God knows or having a guess at it then acting to either negate it or confirm it is a bit 'o' contorted thinking as well. Which is what the original question amounts to in a way.
Which would be why the only valid logical answers are: 'no' you cannot change it or god's omniscience and free-will are mutually exclusive and thus one of the biblical teachings must be wrong.
Originally posted by BrightScouse: Since god made me and knows everything then he knew, even before I was born, whether or not I would go to heaven. Therefore is there anything I can do in my life that can change the outcome one way or the other?
Although God already knows the final outcome, He does not control you in such a way that you would have no free will.
In other words, only your free choice, ie yourself, is responsible for the final outcome. That God already knows what the final outcome is does not change anything in this matter.
An analogue to the concept of 'future-knowledge' would be older kids not allowing a smaller kid to play with them, as the older one's know the smaller kid can't handle the game yet. Still, after a while they give in to the younger kid's request and let him join the game, when it turns out the younger one cannot yet handle the game, just as predicted.
In other words, only your free choice, ie yourself, is responsible for the final outcome. That God already knows what the final outcome is does not change anything in this matter.
So, given that I cannot change my mind in a way that God has not forseen, how is my will free?
Furthermore, if God were to instruct my will to change, would it change?
If it does, it is not free; if it does not, God is not God.
Originally posted by friend: Although God already knows the final outcome, He does not control you in such a way that you would have no free will.
In other words, only your free choice, ie yourself, is responsible for the final outcome. That God already knows what the final outcome is does not change anything in this matter.
An analogue to the concept of 'future-knowledge' would be older kids not allowing a smaller kid to play with them, as the older one's know the smaller kid can't handle the game yet. Still, after a while they give in to the younger kid's request and let him join the game, when it turns out the younger one cannot yet handle the game, just as predicted.
Your analogy is rubbish, the older kids merely predicted something based on a reasonable assessment of the situation. It is entirely possible (in your scenario) that they could have been wrong and they had mis-judged the abilities of the younger kid.
What about this scenario then. I am about to draw a card from a pack of cards. You claim your god knows what card I will draw. There is therefore nothing I can do to alter the outcome. I may change my mind at the last minute, but god knows that. Therefore I only have the illusion of free will. I may think I am freely selecting a card but I am not. Much as if a trickster had made every card the same.
There is no heaven, there is no hell. Please start thinking instead of believing! You only have to believe in things you don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND. So God needs no belief, faith or soldiers for that matter. If you consider God as your (spiritual) parent you should not worship God as you never have to bow down before your (physical) mother and father. Instead of this you love them and respect them. Naturally God doesn't need followers, slaves, priests, servants, soldiers or other lunatix. So wake up (Mr. Freeman) and smell the universe...
