quote:

Originally posted by Sunny D'Light:
Now, yoga, qigong meditation and tai chi will make you feel good. However, studies have shown benefits go far beyond how they make you feel, they can truly transform you for the better. Some of these include:

Reduced stress, anxiety and depression

Increased mental faculities(memory, concentration, learning)

Increased creativity

Increased intelligence

Increased energy levels

Normalised weight

Increased Respiratory efficiency

Increased Cardiovascular efficiency

More calm and concentrated mind

Improved posture

Increased strength, flexibility and endurance

Reduced Total cholesterol

Reduced blood pressure

Increased awareness

Improved immune system

Increased confidence

Increased sexual performance

Increased balance, reaction time and hand eye co-ordination

By selecting the right narcotics, most of these things can be achieved with only faith in your drug dealer being a requirement.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunny D'Light:
When Jesus went up to the mountain and meditated in his circle, he came back to offer spiritual guidance to people. This means that Jesus's new wisdom was due to the meditation. Yogis have been doing this for thousands of years and they too attribute their wisdom to this "Christ consciousness" they experience in meditation. In fact, a lot of people who practice spirituality today, are experiencing the same. Thus, Jesus was not an exception

Funnily ebnough, I've generally got a better understanding of things after sitting quietly and thinking about it. I wouldn't call it meditating though, just thinking about things.

I can see how these practics such as meditation and yoga can be beneficial, but it's got nothing to do with spirituality in my opinion, and more to do with people actually taking the time to do something for themselves and having that time to reflect and think about things. These people would get just as much mental benefit from sitting listening to a bit of music on their own for an hour or so without having it all wrapped up in superstitions and assorted mumbo jumbo.

Why are these practices, which are fundamentally just exercise, anything to do with spirituality?

quote:

Originally posted by Sunny D'Light:

quote:

By selecting the right narcotics, most of these things can be achieved with only faith in your drug dealer being a requirement.

Even though you said that in jest, that is actually true. The effects ones feels are all created by biochemical and neurological changes, and drugs can cause similar effects.

These practices cause biochemical changes in the bodies and elicit the same kind of effects, albeit, more permenant, natural and lesser side effects.

Who said I was jesting? An acid trip for example can be a very revealing exercise, giving you a greater insight into your own nature and personality without months of training in yoga or hours of meditation. If drugs are used rather than abused they can be as vital and informative a part of life with as many benefits as yoga or meditation. Better living through chemistry. And no matter how long you meditate or what shapes you twist yourself into during a yoga session, you'll never attain the sensation of tripping on mushrooms or acid.

Hello there ... could not resist popping in here too ...
The difference between religion and spirituality according to you then, summarising, and removing the somewhat emotive language in your comments which look negatively at religion, and positiviely at spirituality ... what you have just said is that religion is drawn from outside of yourself, whereas spirituality is drawm from within you.

There I can absolutely agree. Our difference seems to be that I consider that seeking answers for spiritual needs has to come from the creator whereas you seem to feel that defining your own solutions drawn from your own sources is the way forward.

However, these two positions have different consequences ... religion can lift you above yourself, by the power and goodness of the creator, whereas you are doomed to be lifting yourself by your own bootstraps if all your solutions have to come from within.

As for your comments about Jesus, and trying to portray him as some sort of yogic guru, all I can say is that you have clearly missunderstood almost everything Jesus taught and stood for, and are trying to use particular words in a few scattered texts to justify your worldview, which surely for your position is unnnecessary anyway.

[/QUOTE]There is a difference between believing you have a relationship with god and experiencing the relationship with god without belief. One requires faith in a god; the other doesn't.
/QUOTE]

I cannot accept that at all.
I neither beleive I have a relationship with God, not do I experience this relationshiop with God without belief. I have a relationship with God ... not a matter of belief.
I have a relationship with my son too. It do not believe I do ... i really do.

That which I experience from my relationship with God is not available without it. There fore it is not possible to have the same relationship with God without belief as you suggest. Again using my relationship with my son as an example ... as I have a relationship with him, I can interact with him, enjoying time with him, and the way he is. You, not having a relationship with him, cannot, though you can imagine the possibility of the existence of such a one, and imagine what such a relationship with this hypothetical son could be like.

That is consiuderably less satisfying than actually having a relationship ... though you are free in your situation to imagine the relationship however you wish.

In terms of your illustration about the wonam told she would die ... perhaps you should rephrase it to allow for the fact that one of them actually does have a relationship with God and actually does hear. Perhaps however, that is not acceptable because you cannot accept the existance of such a relationship.

The one who is really talking to, and hearing from God ... KNOWS ... though I obviously accept that others may not. So your closing question can be answered by the two people ... either one of them will know, or neither of them are really hearing from god at all.

Spirituality by your definition then has been hijacked from the realm of the Spirit to the realm of the inner being. A relationship with God is by definition really the most sublime spiritual experience knowable.
In terms of questioning my religion, I have and regularly continue to do so. I teach Christianity at degree and Post graduate degree level at the university of Wales. I have done my research as it were, and your claims for Jesus' similarities to other cultic figures are of popularist rhetoric rather than academic rigour. The historicity of the bible narratives, and the confidence we can have in Jesus and his teaching in the records that we have are hundereds of times more attested than anything of a comparable period in history. So I have researched, and I do know my facts.

However, these are not the most significant thing. That is my relationship with God. Of course I cannot prove to you that he talks to me. I cannot prove to you that my son talks to me either ... yet he does. If you find that incredible, or unbelieveable, that is your decision. I do not expect you to jump onto my path because of my claims.

However, I would invite anyone to try for themselves the possibility of having a relationship with God. In fact the bible says "taste and see that God is good". Don't take my word for it ... do some empirical scientific research for yourself.

As far as my mind tricking me ... well anyone can say that ... it is true ... but the real test is the test of time ... how often is this right? The intelligence services consider that one event is circumstance, two events are suspicious, but three events are enemy action. I have many tales of God speaking, answering, and of things happening that are at very least 'coincidental'. How many coincidences do we need? I cannot prove to you that he speaks ... but I am convinced by many tests. I dont ask anyone to take my word for it ... go find out for yourselves!

This topic as you said is spirituality shopper. That is the best place to find cohesive spiritual teaching from one who knows ... God.

Sunny D, Serianddave,

Basically your both talking about the same thing, spiritual growth for the individual using methods steaming from 'belief' or 'spiritual' grazing.

Wouldn't either of you say that the end result is more or less the same? A personal connection with a non material aspect to our conciousness during the everyday aspect of our lives? How you get there is not the issue, just that you have is wicked?

And managing to do all this and have a respect for other people and their 'beliefs' or 'spiritually', as what connects you may not connect me?

Your debate on spiritually/belief's is interesting and it must feel good to flex your belief's in a neutral setting.

On the subject of the programme, I do agree with many on the forum, in that while it may not be ideal (a bit wooden) there is a way of connecting with 'spirituality' or 'belief' without having to give up modern/practicle/scientific way of thought. For some they might not need another reality programme, this time presented by the silver fox, but if it reaches the person who really is on a rabbit run, and wants to find another way, it can only be a good thing right? Back to it's not how you get there (as long it doesn't hurt another) just the fact you get there?

"Be the change you wish to see" - Ghandi

Hi Sunni ... just a few comments on your answer, but really I don't know that this is worth continuing, I think both of us understand the others position, and cannot agree with most of it. I wish you well in your journey into spirituality, and hope that you find something ultimately satisfying.

However, there are one or two comments you made that I have to answer because they are simply factually incorrect.

You said "To this day there is no evidence that Jesus even existed" This is simply untrue. There are secular records relating to Jesus from that time, and immediately afterwards.In fact there are more objective historical references to him than to Julius Caesar. Some of those even came from the enemies of Christianity.

You also said "The teachings of "Jesus" are based on the heresay of his disciples, who wrote about him much later after his death"
This is a position held by some mimimalist theologians, but there are a great many more who disagree with this, and consider that the first of the accounts of Jesus'life and teaching were being written within a few years of his death, and were read by many who could have exposed lies and exaggerations. So what you said is not the blanket truth that you might think.

You also said "Each disciples account depicts Jesus's life and teachings differently."
That is true ... but? That is actually a mark of authenticity not failure. If they had all been identical they would have been open to the charge of collaboration. As it is, because everyone sees events differently, they record them differently. A mark then of their individual sources not of error. This is a well known phenomenon. Any police interviewer knows of this, do some research, you will see that no two people see the same event in the same way. Actually that gives us a richer picture of Jesus life and teaching than a single account would have done.

You also said "Prove that god exists, and then people will try"
How can one prove to a two dimensional being that a third dimension exists? Similarly how can I prove to you that God exists when he is so clearly outside your experiences? All I can say, as I have said, is try him ... experiment.

I have picked up more than I intended, but nevertheless wish you well Sunni farewell

I'm a muslim woman and I watched the last two episodes of Spirtuality Shopper, You didn't mention Islam you went to Sufism which they claim to be muslims but they are far away from the right Islam, If Johnathan wanted to meet muslims ,he must go to the mosque or try to meet the Imam(the one who leads prayers) of any mosque.Sufi dancing never been in Islam, it is something a group of people practice and have no origin in Islam. Muslims believe in and do only what is said in Quran and Sunnah.So I would appreciate if Johnathan find out about the real Islam with the new shopper.

In my opinion,I don't believe in spirtuality shopping at all, spirtuality shopping resembles pain killer pills but not the right method to solve anyone's problem. Everyone needs to fulfil the spirtual side as well as the material side of himself but not by "Shopping", religion is not a relaxation technique but it is a method of life,so the one who needs to fulfil his spirtual side and walk on the right path must find the right religion and must think of finding the truth of the creator of the universe and believe in Him.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through the varied responses to the programme. Spirituality Shopper has cleary provoked strong reactions.

The pick & mix approach has undergone much scrutiny and largely been reported in a very damning and derogatory way. As the 'subject' of the programme, I am incredibly fortunate to have met with the people I did and to have my eyes opened to different religions and spiritual practices. There has been much said about this approach being shallow and making a mockery of religion, but this wasn't about religion. The aim was never for me to find God; but to find an inner peace and understanding of who I am and the path in life I wish to take. Selfish? We are all responsible for the journey we take in life, and I think it's a shame more people don't stop and think about their actions and the importance of their lives.

Spirituality Shopper was always going to be scrutinised in relation to religion, but it is my belief that mainstream religion is losing resonance with the younger generations, and a programme such as this opens peoples eyes to spiritual faiths and practices in a much more contemporary and relevant way - which in my mind can only be a good thing.

Another important point to take note of is that the programme was only 47 minutes long, whereas I was committed to practising the rituals day in day out for 40 days, which was emotionally exhausting, challenging and ultimately life changing. For me personally this has been a thoroughly valuable journey, one which no amount of bad press can take away. Meditation has helped enormously and whirling (the biggest challenge to overcome feeling like a prize idiot!) I can honestly say has changed my life, and I will continue to meet with the Sheikh at future workshops. There has also been much misconception about the practice of lent and sacrificing my hair straightners. Shallow? Yes maybe to a degree. But don't most of us worry about our image? Is this not why the fashion/beauty/celebrity culture thrives? I like many other young women was concerned with image and the way in which others perceived me, and as silly as it sounds, being asked to present myself to friends and colleagues as the real 'unmasked' me was actually a really tough personal challenge, although maybe not enthralling viewing given it's personal nature to me. I am happy to say that I have now overcome my concerns with image and it is a wonderful feeling to be happy in my own skin, something which I fear not many women are able to say.

Again I feel the need to stress the difference between religion and spirituality, and I am living proof that you can benefit spiritually through undertaking such practices and opening your mind and heart. I understand that this is difficult to convey on TV, and you only have my word for it, but I am happy to say that 2 months on, I remain more open minded, calm and positive about my life and the world in which we live - and it doesn't get better than that!

Michaela Newton-Wright

Hi Michaela,

Thanks for your post, it's not often that the subject of programmes join in the ensuing debate and it's interesting to hear how you are continuing the practices as well as giving us the oportunity to ask further questions.

I was wondering if on your journey did you ever consider just abandoning religion and spirituality altogether and search for solutions outside of the realms of faith?

All of the positives you have got from the pick and mix approach I feel are just as attainable through none-spiritual means and you don't have the paradox of validatng certain religious practices while abandoning the dogma that places them in context.

I'm also interested in how the people you met felt about you taking only certain elements of their religion and mixing it with others from competing religions.

Thanks again.

Peace and love to all,

A special hello to Michaela. I really enjoyed the programme. For me it gave a proportional balance between modern life and spirituality, proving that there is practical and spiritual benefit from the practices without getting heavily into the religous side which really would have provoked strong reactions.

I particularly enjoyed the Whirling and am able to say that the practice has had the exact same effect on my life as it did Michaela's and despite the views of some ignorant Muslims it is very much a part of Islam and a blessing from the divine.

I hope the rest of the series is as enlightening as the first episode.

It would be great to read honest, heartfelt views on this forum rather than some of the egotistic whaffling that we can all do without, get a life people,,!!!!!

Salams to all, hope to see some of you at the workshops. If anyone is interested in the sufi music just let me know your e-mail addresses.

Steve (Jalaluddin)

'Kinoath ya sad little bodgy Galah, try gettin' the Ol' Jack Lang right!

Hi Julia

I was devestated to see your program aired. Having spent years developing my interreligious artwork I went to production companies to discuss program ideas. I went about this the right way, following the appropriate "Codes of Practice".

These ideas included "Shopping for Religion", which I submitted to a Channel 4 production company and Aaqil Ahmed (Commissioning Editor for Channel 4 Religion) in April and May 2004. The format was exploring different religions in a shopping format.

One would hope that makers of religious programmes would have a level of integrity, however this is not the case in this instance.
I am taking legal proceedings and consulting my union BECTU about this. Your program should have been called "Spirituality Shoplifter" and "Nic 'n' Mix" not "Pick 'n' Mix".
http://www.theism.co.uk