After living in England for 10 years I still find it amazing how unconnected to England the English are. When you go to Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the Isle of Man yes they consider themselves British but they are also fiercely proud of their country but this doesn't seem to run through with the English; why?
Ehm...the Irish do not think of themselves as British, my friend...
The English are very proud of, and connected to, their Englishness. But it is generally a quiet pride. Also, if you are a hugely smaller nation within a federation of nations that is dominated by a much larger one, you tend to need to flag-wave and go on about it more.
Originally posted by littleandoften: Ehm...the Irish do not think of themselves as British, my friend...
The English are very proud of, and connected to, their Englishness. But it is generally a quiet pride. Also, if you are a hugely smaller nation within a federation of nations that is dominated by a much larger one, you tend to need to flag-wave and go on about it more.
My apologies North of the border I was referring too. I think there is no pride at all I think they are happy to put England down at every opportunity. They celebrate nothing that is English and would happily see their culture, history and tradition flushed disappear.
The most unsavoury elements seem to attach themselves to this patriotism in England. They seem to think you need to be white to celebrate St George's Day or fly the Union Jack rather than St George's cross. St George was Turkish and died in Palestine.
Some celebrated the day by abusing ethnic minority groups - it seems. On the celebrations in Trafalgar Square:
'Ursula Jones, a 76-year-old Swiss-born passer-by, mused as the tomato-stamping tuba act came to a close: 'It was the most extraordinary thing. I was asking somebody what it meant. Nobody seems to know.''
Originally posted by steste: When you go to Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the Isle of Man yes they consider themselves British
You need to get away from the EBC 24 hour news my friend. Scots consider themselves Scottish Europeans whereas the English Broadcasting Corporation considers them subjects unworthy of democracy! Only members of the Orange Lodge and the Freemasons consider themselves British. Weirdly, both of these groups are pagan loyalist sects.
Originally posted by Sea Gypsy: The most unsavoury elements seem to attach themselves to this patriotism in England. They seem to think you need to be white to celebrate St George's Day or fly the Union Jack rather than St George's cross. St George was Turkish and died in Palestine.
Some celebrated the day by abusing ethnic minority groups - it seems. On the celebrations in Trafalgar Square:
'Ursula Jones, a 76-year-old Swiss-born passer-by, mused as the tomato-stamping tuba act came to a close: 'It was the most extraordinary thing. I was asking somebody what it meant. Nobody seems to know.''
Quite!
I don't think that the nationality of your patron saint really matters, what matters is that he someone that makes England, England and people seem to be happy just to let him disappear to the books
Originally posted by steste: When you go to Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the Isle of Man yes they consider themselves British
You need to get away from the EBC 24 hour news my friend. Scots consider themselves Scottish Europeans whereas the English Broadcasting Corporation considers them subjects unworthy of democracy! Only members of the Orange Lodge and the Freemasons consider themselves British. Weirdly, both of these groups are pagan loyalist sects.
Sorry you must have assumed everyone is like you and that we cannot muster up an opinion of our own and so have to use the lazymans news channels. No this was a debate I was having in the pub last night. Funnily enough it was with a scottishman, Irishman and an Englishman (sounds like a good start to a joke) and they all considered them selves British but also of their nationality apart from the Englishman......back under you rock..
Originally posted by Sea Gypsy: The most unsavoury elements seem to attach themselves to this patriotism in England. They seem to think you need to be white to celebrate St George's Day or fly the Union Jack rather than St George's cross. St George was Turkish and died in Palestine.
Some celebrated the day by abusing ethnic minority groups - it seems. On the celebrations in Trafalgar Square:
'Ursula Jones, a 76-year-old Swiss-born passer-by, mused as the tomato-stamping tuba act came to a close: 'It was the most extraordinary thing. I was asking somebody what it meant. Nobody seems to know.''
Quite!
I don't think that the nationality of your patron saint really matters, what matters is that he someone that makes England, England and people seem to be happy just to let him disappear to the books
It might matter to those who seem to want to celebrate Englishness.
Sorry you must have assumed everyone is like you and that we cannot muster up an opinion of our own and so have to use the lazymans news channels. No this was a debate I was having in the pub last night. Funnily enough it was with a scottishman, Irishman and an Englishman (sounds like a good start to a joke) and they all considered them selves British but also of their nationality apart from the Englishman......back under you rock..
I just love the way you judge a nation as thinking it was British! Still if it supports your view, why not twist the truth. Scots have never been asked if they wanted to be British. Never ever had a say in it. Not even once in three hundred years. So perhaps how (apart from your alcohol addled poll of one Scot) you can support the EBC theory that Scots think of themselves as British. Can you really not think for yourself?
Originally posted by steste: When you go to Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the Isle of Man yes they consider themselves British
You need to get away from the EBC 24 hour news my friend. Scots consider themselves Scottish Europeans whereas the English Broadcasting Corporation considers them subjects unworthy of democracy! Only members of the Orange Lodge and the Freemasons consider themselves British. Weirdly, both of these groups are pagan loyalist sects.
Sorry you must have assumed everyone is like you and that we cannot muster up an opinion of our own and so have to use the lazymans news channels. No this was a debate I was having in the pub last night. Funnily enough it was with a scottishman, Irishman and an Englishman (sounds like a good start to a joke) and they all considered them selves British but also of their nationality apart from the Englishman......back under you rock..
I'm Scottish and a VERY proud Scot at that! - when asked, I am Scottish, when filling a form I am Scottish. I NEVER call myself British, as is the case with very many Scots. Back under your own rock, and take your Englishness and Britishness with you.
Well done! I am sure that works out very well for you. It must be quite humbling when you get your pocket money from England once a year so you can actually function as a country. I am a Manxman and very proud of it, but I am also proud of being British.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by steste: It must be quite humbling when you get your pocket money from England once a year so you can actually function as a country. proud of QUOTE]
Not at all, after all the English are the ones fightin to keep us from Independence, so I'm guessing there is a very good fiscal reason for them wanting to hang on to us! same as every other country the English ever took an interest in.
HA yes because if they did grant you independence I am sure the 53 quid GDP you bring in through whiskey sales would support the massive unemployment, poor health and crime problems that you have. But it really has no relevance to the my initial query. It is quite obvious that there is nothing wrong with your national pride!
Originally posted by steste: HA yes because if they did grant you independence I am sure the 53 quid GDP you bring in through whiskey sales would support the massive unemployment, poor health and crime problems that you have. But it really has no relevance to the my initial query. It is quite obvious that there is nothing wrong with your national pride!
Nothing at all and just to clarify, Scotland were paying £241 per capita to the exchequer at a time when England's contribution was £83. Our crime statistics are most certainly not as high as England, and admittedly we DO like our grub, but I don't think the English fair any better in the health stakes.
It's nice to be proud of ones country. I see no reason to be proud of being British though. If you do I can't fault that.
Originally posted by steste: HA yes because if they did grant you independence I am sure the 53 quid GDP you bring in through whiskey sales would support the massive unemployment, poor health and crime problems that you have. But it really has no relevance to the my initial query. It is quite obvious that there is nothing wrong with your national pride!
Nothing at all and just to clarify, Scotland were paying £241 per capita to the exchequer at a time when England's contribution was £83. Our crime statistics are most certainly not as high as England, and admittedly we DO like our grub, but I don't think the English fair any better in the health stakes.
It's nice to be proud of ones country. I see no reason to be proud of being British though. If you do I can't fault that.
This is a difficult topic, but to put it straight, I believe the English feel guilty/uncomfortable about their national identity whether it's being English or British. Celebrating "Englishness", or even Britishness in England has been linked to all the negative aspects of nationalism and I believe it is seen as particularly out of place in a multicultural society by the powers that be because it could make other cultures feel uncomfortable and threatened. It has therefore been discouraged and frowned upon.
A prime example of the social engineering that's been happening for decades was back in March when Margaret Hodge attacked The Proms as not promoting community cohesion. She spoke of celebrating "icons of common culture" which everyone can be proud of. This, I believe, expresses the underlying ideology which is the answer to your little conundrum.
The sad thing is that I'm not really convinced that there's pressure from immigrants, or British citizens from other cultural backgrounds, to do things like this. It is perhaps a flaw in the English psyche that forces us to censor our own culture for the benefit of others.
There is maybe no pressure from ethnic minorities as they are English too and would expect to be included in the celebrations. I have never heard of any groups being excluded from Paddy's Day celebrations and therein may lie the clue to having a fantastic hoolie. The Irish celebrate this day worldwide with anyone who happens to want to celebrate with them. The preparations are passionate and all inclusive.
Originally posted by Sea Gypsy: There is maybe no pressure from ethnic minorities as they are English too and would expect to be included in the celebrations. I have never heard of any groups being excluded from Paddy's Day celebrations and therein may lie the clue to having a fantastic hoolie. The Irish celebrate this day worldwide with anyone who happens to want to celebrate with them. The preparations are passionate and all inclusive.
Paddies day is celebrated around the world as an excuse for a drink, the majority of people don't care that he is the patron saint of England. But I do agree with TauCeti. I think that younger generations wont know what it is to be English, just euro trash and it is so desperately sad because England has a wonderful history
Why then are other nations so envious and want to find an excuse for a drink? I find your comments offensive given that many people I know travel far and wide to meet up on Paddy's Day and many start the day at Mass.
I should say he is not the patron saint of England. Why won't young people know what it's like to be English? Do you mean Scots young people? Irish? Welsh? English? English abroad? English young people of all ethnicities are currently being young people in England, therefore they should know what it is like.
Addendum: why won't English young people not know their history? Teacher strikes? Irresponsible, unknowing parents? Lack of books? no DVDs? no t'internet? PCs? Travel? History Channel? No Time Team? What's going on?
Schools are too busy teaching about vietnam and the american civil war to worry about anything that has anthing to do with England.
Parents, I would be willing to bet my last penny that if you asked a hundred parents to name the last 3 monarchs 90% of them couldn't
Publication of Historical books aren't really a big mover with children that don't get bullied daily. Why not do what France did and make a series of graphic novels etc to pass on history.
Travel, we are forced to go as children to a few castles and museums and the rest of the time they are all tourists at the points of historical interest.
History channel seems only willing to play WWII footage
I was raised with a very good understanding of where I come from and the history of the place and that is what counts.
Scottish, Irish and Welsh children seem to have a very good grounding in the history of their respective conty - I wonder why it is that English children are not as well educated/informed??
I know that I got my sense of "nationality" from my parents and grandparents - and my children were raised (as were most of their peer group) with an awareness of how we came to be where we are today. As far as I know the History Curriculum in schools does not differ very much throughout the British Isles, so it is hard to see why the disparity?
I think there are many reasons but going back to a comment made earlier, I think that English content is deliberately diluted so as not to offend people who in the majority of cases wouldn't care less. But it is having a real impact on the country. England is no longer a country it a nondescript land mass of people that have no identity.
and just to clarify, Scotland were paying £241 per capita to the exchequer at a time when England's contribution was £83. Our crime statistics are most certainly not as high as England, and admittedly we DO like our grub, but I don't think the English fair any better in the health stakes.