Notice also that if true, it makes the number of universes equal to 2, whereas it is currently 1. That hardly gets Occam out of bed, let alone think about shaving - if 1, why not 2? The thing that would have William slicing himself would be "if 0, why not 1?" Eg god.
Although William Ockham (correct spelling i think) was a Franciscan friar
The thread title is which came first matter or information.
If the word “matter” and the word “information” are actually one thing. Then to ask which came first is meaningless.
I compose a tune in my head . This is "information" held in the "matter" of my brain. I write this tune down - the information is now held within the matter of the paper and ink. Someone plays the tune on a piano - information is transferred via sound waves to another brain. There has been transfer of information from one brain to another but no transfer of matter or energy. How can the information and the matter be "one thing" ?
Let's start again. What is your measure of complexity? Shannon information? Is this sufficient to describe DNA / RNA (which I'm sure you were thinking of)? Do you mean an increase in local or global complexity?
Asking such a question in the absence of suitable context is pretty pointless - hence my glib reply.
-------------------- If you feel like you're always in the dark - switch the lights on!
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Winston Churchill
Let's start again. What is your measure of complexity? Shannon information? Is this sufficient to describe DNA / RNA (which I'm sure you were thinking of)? Do you mean an increase in local or global complexity?
Asking such a question in the absence of suitable context is pretty pointless - hence my glib reply.
I'm asking this as a very general, generic question. Use any example you like - formation of carbon atoms in stars or the coding of complex life forms on DNA/RNA. I am genuinely interested whether you can give me an example of an increase in complexity without some sort of information input (information being defined as at the beginning of thread- answer in terms of Shannon information if you want but try and keep things simple for those of us not well-versed in information theory!)
Originally posted by greenbelt: Originally posted by smoke an mirrors:
I'm asking this as a very general, generic question. Use any example you like - formation of carbon atoms in stars or the coding of complex life forms on DNA/RNA. I am genuinely interested whether you can give me an example of an increase in complexity without some sort of information input (information being defined as at the beginning of thread- answer in terms of Shannon information if you want but try and keep things simple for those of us not well-versed in information theory!)
Well if you're asking "can things become more complex (ie they require more bits to describe) without requiring more bits to describe then I'm afraid I can't help you!
OTOH. It's been recently discovered that the number of copies of a gene you possess can radically affect the behaviour of the gene.
This may well be a good example and could lead to an interesting discussion on the nature of mutation in relation to physical laws and determinism.....time to think!
I don't think I ever heard a satisfactory response to a point made on here a while back:
All genetic mutations are reversible, if something could have mutated one way, it could equally well have mutated the other. Hence if a destructive mutation is possible, then its exact reverse is possible, which would be constructive.
