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quote: Originally posted by leafar:
I listen to Alex Jones' radio show for 3 hours every day and i have 3 books by David Icke which i read and reread,
That's not educating yourself, its indoctrination. |
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The organisation Judicial Watch last year forced the US Government under FOI (freedom of information, 'warloch)to release ALL of the 9/11 CCTV footage from the Pentagon and confisacated private business and freeway 9/11 film so we might see what caused that 18ft hole through three rings of the facility. The US Government to date have not fully complied with the ruling, are they in contempt of court? any legal eagles out there? Surely no-one can deny this amounts to clear guilty demeanour on the part of the US administration?
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^ What, precisely, have they not given out. They've released the CCTV footage from the Sheraton and the petrol station, both were not pointing at the Pentagon.
Anyone who starts a sentence with 'no-one can deny' is surely about to utter complete bull.
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Blade runner, you may disagree with what i believe, but how is me reading a few books and listening to a radio show most nights any more indoctrination that the average person watching the news and reading the paper? Id be very interested to see how you can explain this.
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quote: Originally posted by leafar:
Blade runner, you may disagree with what i believe, but how is me reading a few books and listening to a radio show most nights any more indoctrination that the average person watching the news and reading the paper? Id be very interested to see how you can explain this.
Don't try to pretend that your CT literature conforms to the same journalistic and impartiality standards as people like the BBC. Thats just laughable. |
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quote: Originally posted by welshwarlock:
^ What, precisely, have they not given out. They've released the CCTV footage from the Sheraton and the petrol station, both were not pointing at the Pentagon. LINK? and of course this needs to be forensicated by several independent photographic labs to be worth anything as evidence after all this inexplicable 5 year delay
Anyone who starts a sentence with 'no-one can deny' is surely about to utter complete bull.
what? after the US Government original story was that there were NO cctv images of whatever hit the Pentagon?? and I started the sentence with 'surely'. Have the US Government released ALL the 9/11 Pentagon footage, are they in compliance with the FOI ruling or in contempt of court? |
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Blade runner, you may disagree with what i believe, but how is me reading a few books and listening to a radio show most nights any more indoctrination that the average person watching the news and reading the paper? Id be very interested to see how you can explain this.
Im not deliberately trying to pretend anything, welshwarlock, im just saying what i think. Theres a difference. And the difference between the bbc and the "wacky" news sources is that the big news organisations condense their information and its basically reduced to the level of entertainment. Everything is kept simplified. You have the War on terror, and all the other buzzwords and slogans. The conspiracy sources are very independent of all that crap, and its real news even if you disagree with it. Unfortunately, and i think i need to emphasise this, because the non mainstream journalists are very rarely if at all allowed to appear on mainstream media, they have to go their own way, and this then makes it easy for people such as yourself to say that its unregulated, there are no standards, etc. Thats like saying that supermarket food is better than the market.
Instead of ridiculing what ive just said, think about it. Im a pretty well educated, articulate person with no mental health issues, yet i believe some pretty wacky stuff. And there are many other intelligent adults out there who can tell you that mainstream does not equal impartial. If you believe this, then thats really sad.
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quote: Originally posted by leafar:
Blade runner, you may disagree with what i believe, but how is me reading a few books and listening to a radio show most nights any more indoctrination that the average person watching the news and reading the paper?
But its the same books and the same show. Its not really a balanced picture, is it? |
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The problem for people who cry 'conspiracy theory' about every attempt at exposing official wrongdoing, is that sometimes the conspiracy actually happened. Colin Wallace, a security forces worker, was told by his boss to deliver some papers to an MPs house. He was arrested and sacked for breaking the official secrets act. (He had complained up the line that Ministers were deliberately given false information about Northern Ireland in order to scupper the peace process, and he thought that wrong.) Later, he was framed for murder and jailed for years to keep him quiet.
Conspiracy theory? Of course. Except for the quite interesting part where Mrs Thatcher ordered that he be given a pardon and a restored reputation.
Kind of makes you wonder about that Kelly man who 'committed suicide' doesn't it?
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Thats not a valid point at all, bladerunner. Many people watch the same news programmes on tv night after night (and even if they watch different programmes, most of the news stories are the same, with the same opinions expressed within them). And many people buy the same newspapers and magazines every day or every week.
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And let me also point out that i do watch the news on tv almost every day, usually more than once, so i do have a very balanced picture, unlike most people.
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I think your reasoning is a little off base....
Whilst I would agree that sometimes news programmes can be limited, they aren't confined in the same way that re-reading the same books are...
And there are many news sources.
Reading David Icke can't really contribute to a 'balanced' view since these views represent a tiny minority and have no evidence base or coherent reasoning to support them....
Whilst its arguably useful to be aware that some people think like that, just as some people claim to have been abducted by aliens, I think its a mistake to attribute too much weight to such opinions.
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quote: Originally posted by johnbee:
The problem for people who cry 'conspiracy theory' about every attempt at exposing official wrongdoing, is that sometimes the conspiracy actually happened. Colin Wallace, a security forces worker, was told by his boss to deliver some papers to an MPs house. He was arrested and sacked for breaking the official secrets act. (He had complained up the line that Ministers were deliberately given false information about Northern Ireland in order to scupper the peace process, and he thought that wrong.) Later, he was framed for murder and jailed for years to keep him quiet.
Conspiracy theory? Of course. Except for the quite interesting part where Mrs Thatcher ordered that he be given a pardon and a restored reputation.
Kind of makes you wonder about that Kelly man who 'committed suicide' doesn't it?
Of course, 'conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorist are trigger words usually followed by 'tinfoil hat' or 'nutjob' no matter how many anomolies go unanswered, the organ grinders monkeys just have to mouth the littany and the guilty go unpunished. |
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When i said that i have read the same couple of books more than once, this does not mean that i have not read more information than that. Ive read a lot of things on lots of different websites, both mainstream and non mainstream, and as i say i watch the news on tv nearly every day. In fact the mainstream websites very often have links to mainstream sites, which i often check aswell. So im hardly confining myself.
Reading David Icke does contribute to a balanced biew because im checking what the mainstream says, and im also looking at what the minorities say. Even if he had no evidence to back up what he says, i would still be geting a balanced view, ie both the view of those that back themselves up, aswell as the views of those that do not. But the fact is, that these conspiracy sites do not consist of claims and nothing else. They consist of claims plus information to support it.
Whether or not one agrees that the information given does a good job of suporting the claim, the fact is that information is given. When someone writes an essay which decades later turns out to be absolutely true although the essay contained no supporting information, at the time its written it would be seen as unreliable. But if someone writes an essay which later turns out to be very flawed but it contains lots of supporting information, at the time its written it will be seen as a good essay. So if you dont agree that the information on these websites or books constitues good evidence for the claims being made, thats another story. My point is that i read all sorts of things, and most of it gives some sort of supporting info (i say most because often mainstream claims give very little supporting information).
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quote: Sydbee, im not a conspiracy researcher, so i cannot personally show you anything. But check out, for example, alex jones (google that), texe marrs, jim marrs, michael tsarion. Some of the claims that youll hear are very weird, so id start off by focussing mainly on the social and political aspects, as theyre easier to substantiate, rather than reptilians and things like that, unless youre ready for it. Its advisable to be reasonably thorough when looking at these, because one quick look isnt enough to get a good grasp of what some of these people are saying. And by the way, believing in a non mainstream theory about why 911 happened does not equate with a disrespect for relatives. Its just a different opinion. I wish it didnt happen, i just have a differening view of why it did, and that doesnt make me disrespectful.
It's all very well questioning the 'mainstream' view of how we believe society to 'really' be, but like it or not, you'll find (apart from more ephemeral pursuits such as the Arts) the mainstream view is the best and correct one due to the fact that it's been held up to intellectual rigour. Once the 'theories' you hold and espouse can hold up to the same critques, then I will believe what you're saying. We're still waiting for your debunk of the 9/11 debunk, BTW...... With regards those you advise that I read/hear, one suspects that you're either yanking our collective chains or perhaps a little too paranoid about the nature of the world in which we exist. Yes, corruption exists; yes, many governments are in thrall to Big Business; yes, there are 'things' being done in our name which we'll never know about (unless the files weren't shredded - perhaps less likely in our computer age)........ It's good to be sceptical, but not at the expense of rationale. Next thing you'll be telling me Elvis was having a right laugh yesterday and that this man truly is the new messiah!   |
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Leafar appears to not know the difference between being open-minded and being gullible. There really isn't much more to say to someone with such a poor grasp of logic.
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I think says all you need to know about David Icke: quote: He was even passed over for Celebrity Big Brother in 2006 for being 'too weird'.
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Sydbee, i really dont know why you or anyone is waiting for me to debunk anything. Im not on trial here. The fact is that i know what ive read. If you never to get to see evidence which i have, then its you who will be none the wiser, not me, and its always up to you what you wish to check out. So at the end its no skin off my nose. Check it out, google it, do what you like. If you wish, of course, no ones forcing you. However, at some point i will make a list of websites and other sources, and then hopefullt people will quit demanding that i do their research for them.
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I just had a look at your link, sydbee, and it really made me laugh. How can David Shayler say that hes God, when i am in fact the creator. Thats right, people, its me. Cant you feel it? David Shayler and David Icke are merely my prophets. You will all bow down before me.
But seriously you cant necessarily believe everything you read in the paper. David Icke was very much misqouted and still is, so i wouldnt be surprised if this is the case here also. But we dont know for sure, i guess we'll have to wait and see. If it turns out that he really is saying that hes god or some sort of prophet, my reaction will be "prove it, right now". The chances are, though, that he has been misquoted. Ill keep an open mind.
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Heres something for all the lazy people. I keep being told by non researching skeptics that conspiracy theories come with no evidence. So, for anyone who thinks that conspiracy theories are just wild claims with no supporting information, here are some examples. I shouldnt really have to do your research for you, but what the hell : Terrorstorm by alex jones. Youll find it on google video. Any of David Ickes lectures (again go to google video). http://www.davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/48/ (you need to scroll all the way down until you come to the section with daily news items). www.prisonplanet.com. If you click on the blue rectangle near the top right of the screen titled "the alex jones show" it goes to the daily radio show. Texe Marrs, Jim Marrs, Phil Schneider, Michael Tsarion, Jordan Maxwell (i dont have their websites so youll need to google them). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories. Scroll down to see a list of researchers, and take it from there. "Problem Reaction Solution" (google that) "New World Order" (google) Theres a lot of information out there, all you have to do is find it. If you dont want to bother with the reptilian stuff, which i know is very far fetched (and its really David Icke who goes on about that "nonsense"), or any other really strange stuff, then dont. But conspiracy theories are usually about things to do with day to day life. The thing to bear in mind is that even if youre not convinced, you cant say that these researchers dont give supporting information. Its not like they just sit around in the dark and come up with these ideas, as so many people ignorantly believe (and ironically with no evidence). And to show that these people arent desperate to concoct theories about everything, Alex Jones, for example, believes that David Icke is a nutter for his reptilian theories. I dont blame him, although i do believe those theories myself to some extent. So if you take a bit of time out to actually see what these people are saying, youll find that they do back up their claims, and thats my point. Or, you can continue saying that theres no evidence, even though ive just directed you to a lot of sources. When you watch the news, its fast and condensed, and neatly presented. Its not boring and lengthy and complex, like the examples that ive given above. Its entertainment, and its all about the headline. People dont have time to watch the news for longer than half an hour, which is handy when you want to keep the sheep nice and happy. Does anyone actually believe that what they see on the news on tv or in the paper, thats thats all there is to it? Do you really think that youre given the big picture, or that what youre told happened happened for the reasons that youre given? |
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And to show that i myself dont believe everything i read or see, i was watching a clip a while back showing George Bush (senior) apparently with his eyes changing into those of a reptilian. These things can be easily faked so i didnt really buy it. So i repeat : I donr believe everything i read, even if it appears to support something that i already feel might be true.
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quote: Originally posted by leafar:
But seriously you cant necessarily believe everything you read in the paper. David Icke was very much misqouted and still is, so i wouldnt be surprised if this is the case here also. But we dont know for sure, i guess we'll have to wait and see. If it turns out that he really is saying that hes god or some sort of prophet, my reaction will be "prove it, right now". The chances are, though, that he has been misquoted. Ill keep an open mind.
I think Carl Sagan said it's good to have an open mind, but if your mind's too open your brains fall out. |
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quote: Originally posted by leafar:
Alex Jones, for example, believes that David Icke is a nutter for his reptilian theories. I dont blame him, although i do believe those theories myself to some extent
Sorry leafar, this is where I get off. I can't take this stuff seriously. I'm not a sheep, but I'm not gullible either. |
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