quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:
Well I don't think I implied a 'big darwinist conspiracy' so much as raised concerns about the strident, aggressive approach of some within the neo-darwinist camp; concerns that have been echoed by some scientists themselves. I'll concede however that until some hard evidence appears, no one has lost their job because they have questioned evolutionary theory.

Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

greenbelt? ballyboneman? Are you proud to have this person on your side?

Rgds

Luis

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

Unfortunately you do have it wrong...partially. The water is thought to have originated from a variety of sources including water bearing comets and asteroids colliding with the early earth; photolosis (that is the breakdown of compounds by light), the slow realease of water from water bearing minerals such as gypsum. These account for an undetermined percentage of the earth's water but it is thought that the largest percentage has been derived from the biochemical activity of the first organisms.

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

greenbelt? ballyboneman? Are you proud to have this person on your side?

Rgds

Luis

Christianity is a broad church and all are welcome.

To be fair I think Redjooles has a genuine interest but possibly feels the need to actively seek out gaps in the knowledge of science possibly because of some percieved conflict between science and Christianity.

I may be completely wrong though.

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:


Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

There's no doubt in my mind that stromatolites were the holy instrument of God to prepare the ground for the appearance of life on earth. It's surprising that stromatolites receive no mention in the Bible. This is obviously an involuntary omission.

I suggest that from now on we also pray to the stromatolites, as they are clearly allies of Yahweh. It is a matter of time before the church of the holy stromatolite is founded. I've heard on the grapevine that one is being built in Hackney right now.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Why is this interesting? What point are you trying to make?
Actually, every planet in the solar system is unique.

quote:

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

You can't be serious.
Sand is mostly silica. Silica is Silicon Dioxide (SiO2). So those productive Stromatolites also made all the sand and quartz.
Urm, so I think it is rather likely that you got it wrong, again.
You really would be well advised to get a bit of science education before posting such questions/points again.

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

Interestingly on the programme Earth: the Power of the Planet - Dr Iain Stewart makes the statement that Earth is unique in the Solar System and quite possibly the Universe!

Also: Stromatolite's are thought to be the first living things that dominated our planet for 2 billion years - they gave our planet oxygen and our liveable atmosphere - they're found in the ocean - water is H2O - without Stromatolite's there is no oxygen, without oxygen there is no O in H2O to fall as rain to create the ocean's (unless i've got it wrong)! Chicken and egg all over again!!

greenbelt? ballyboneman? Are you proud to have this person on your side?

Rgds

Luis

Hey Luis, be nice!! I'm no expert, as far as science goes! I am a historian, however and have been trained to assess historical events based on various forms of evidence.

Having to teach science, in the last few years, has ignited my interest in the topic and given me a real sense of awe and wonder at the natural world.

I accept that this is the best scientific theory, without acknowledging the existence of a Creator/God.

That's why I come here - to challenge, what I see, as a theory based on wafer thin evidence and mathematical (virtual) impossibility; I have to question it!

Some see this as ignorance - I call it curiosity, with a small sprinkling of fun!!

Hi RedJooles,

With a due sense of weariness, I am prepared to start again with your education on this matter, on condition that you actually make an effort to learn something this time (e.g. read your own posts as well as those of other people this time. Not even reading your own copy and paste posts really is extremely rude, you know).

This will certainly also involve you being prepared to forget many of the myths you parrot.

Such as this "wafer thin" nonsense.

What say you?

Rgds

Luis (Who trys, now and again, to remember the lurkers who may actually learn things around here.)

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:

That's why I come here - to challenge, what I see, as a theory based on wafer thin evidence and mathematical (virtual) impossibility; I have to question it!

It's amazing how someone who claims to have no understanding of something sees fit to not only question it, but cast lying aspersions upon it (such as the above "wafer-thin evidence" garbage). You simply don't have the tools to analyse it (yet somehow you consider yourself competent to teach it?), and the lie you repeat above, after many people have repeatedly pointed out that (a)it is a lie, and (b) exactly why it it is a lie, seems to suggest wilfulness in that regard. Presumably this is because you simply don't want it to be true - for reasons that are pretty transparent. This is really a problem for you, not me / Luis / et al. If I were you, I'd be looking inside myself asking why I - who admits to knowing little of the field - sees fit to point out what you see as "flaws" which experts in the field have debunked years ago or which are complete strawmen. Your position is not "educate me". It's "you stupid scientists". To me, it looks like sheer arrogance. WWJD, I wonder, in the face of such arrogance?

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
Hey Luis, be nice!! I'm no expert, as far as science goes! I am a historian, however and have been trained to assess historical events based on various forms of evidence.

Having to teach science, in the last few years, has ignited my interest in the topic and given me a real sense of awe and wonder at the natural world.

I accept that this is the best scientific theory, without acknowledging the existence of a Creator/God.

This is extraordinarily disingenuous.
What you appear to be saying (correct me if I have misrepresented you) is science refuses to 'acknowledge the existence of a Creator/God' so has to come up with something. And this is the best it can come up with.

quote:

That's why I come here - to challenge, what I see, as a theory based on wafer thin evidence and mathematical (virtual) impossibility; I have to question it!

So from your position as 'not an expert' (a massive understatement) you are well placed to judge the evidence are you?
What theory are you referring to?
Your post talked about Stromatolites and Oxygen. I have now watched the programme and it explicitly states the Stromatolites released Oxygen from water. Is that so hard to understand?
What specifically do you think there is no evidence for?
What is mathematically impossible?

quote:

Some see this as ignorance - I call it curiosity, with a small sprinkling of fun!!

And I call it outrageous that someone with such poor understanding of basic science is teaching it.

As an evidence-judging historian would you like to list the contemporaneous accounts of jesus and give us your learned opinion its sparsity.

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

Unfortunately you do have it wrong...partially. The water is thought to have originated from a variety of sources including water bearing comets and asteroids colliding with the early earth; photolosis (that is the breakdown of compounds by light), the slow realease of water from water bearing minerals such as gypsum. These account for an undetermined percentage of the earth's water but it is thought that the largest percentage has been derived from the biochemical activity of the first organisms.

Hummm, that's a lot of water coming from stray comets - but I get your point - those Stromatolite's must have been very busy little creatures - doing that all by themselves!!

Where did those comets bring the ice/water from?

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

Christianity is a broad church and all are welcome.

To be fair I think Redjooles has a genuine interest but possibly feels the need to actively seek out gaps in the knowledge of science possibly because of some percieved conflict between science and Christianity.

I may be completely wrong though.

Thanks B - nice to know you have my back around here... partially

The only scientific theory I have a problem with, is the Darwinist theory of evolution. Most of science points towards a Creator/God! It's a part of science that is not observable, testable or repeatable - just based on observing minute adaptations and then attempting to use this to explain the origins of every form of life - very speculative!

I just have an enquiring mind, that is not easily fobbed off with stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
The only scientific theory I have a problem with, is the Darwinist theory of evolution.

So we understand where you are coming from, do you accept that the world is 4.5 Billion years old?
This aging has nothing to do with Darwin.

quote:

Most of science points towards a Creator/God!

er, no it doesn't.
Why do assert that?

quote:

It's a part of science that is not observable, testable or repeatable

If that is so, then it is not a part of science.

quote:

- just based on observing minute adaptations and then attempting to use this to explain the origins of every form of life - very speculative!

If that was all the evidence ToE had then you would have a case. Unfortunately you have just set-up a straw man.

quote:

I just have an enquiring mind, that is not easily fobbed off with stuff!

Ok, let's take that on face value.
What would persuade you that ToE is true?

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ballyboneman:

Unfortunately you do have it wrong...partially. The water is thought to have originated from a variety of sources including water bearing comets and asteroids colliding with the early earth; photolosis (that is the breakdown of compounds by light), the slow realease of water from water bearing minerals such as gypsum. These account for an undetermined percentage of the earth's water but it is thought that the largest percentage has been derived from the biochemical activity of the first organisms.

quote:

Hummm, that's a lot of water coming from stray comets - but I get your point - those Stromatolite's must have been very busy little creatures - doing that all by themselves!! .

3.5 billion years is an awfully long time!

quote:

Where did those comets bring the ice/water from?

Well I assume by that you mean where did water originate in the universe? Hydrogen was formed during the 'cooling' phase of the early universe and is the most abundant element. Stars are made up mostly of hydrogen. The enormous temperatures and pressures present within stars allow for the fusing of hydrogen atoms into heavier elements such as oxygen. As the hydrogen is used up the star becomes less stable and unable to resist the force of its own gravity, collapses and then explodes flinging the heavier elements, including oxygen, out into space. Once in space the oxygen is free to combine with the hydrogen already present (IOW the stuff that was not used up in star formation) and hey presto you have water in gaseous form which can then condense around intersellar dust particles or rocks and you get an icy comet.

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
Most of science points towards a Creator/God!

And the creator is the Flying Spaghetti Monster! More and more people are recognizing this obvious fact. May you be touched by His noodly appendage!

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:
Well I assume by that you mean where did water originate in the universe? Hydrogen was formed during the 'cooling' phase of the early universe and is the most abundant element. Stars are made up mostly of hydrogen. The enormous temperatures and pressures present within stars allow for the fusing of hydrogen atoms into heavier elements such as oxygen. As the hydrogen is used up the star becomes less stable and unable to resist the force of its own gravity, collapses and then explodes flinging the heavier elements, including oxygen, out into space. Once in space the oxygen is free to combine with the hydrogen already present (IOW the stuff that was not used up in star formation) and hey presto you have water in gaseous form which can then condense around intersellar dust particles or rocks and you get an icy comet.

Thank you B - a logically thought out explanation - and well explained!

So where does this combining go on - are there H2O gaseous clouds out there somewhere (already made)? That comets pass through?

I also find it interesting that comets are still orbiting our system. They should have burned out long ago - except for the existence of this mysterious Oort Cloud:

"Although no confirmed direct observations of the Oort cloud have been made, astronomers believe it to be the source of all long period and Halley-type comets entering the inner solar system (some short-period comets, based on their orbits, may come from the Kuiper belt)."

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ballyboneman:
Well I assume by that you mean where did water originate in the universe? Hydrogen was formed during the 'cooling' phase of the early universe and is the most abundant element. Stars are made up mostly of hydrogen. The enormous temperatures and pressures present within stars allow for the fusing of hydrogen atoms into heavier elements such as oxygen. As the hydrogen is used up the star becomes less stable and unable to resist the force of its own gravity, collapses and then explodes flinging the heavier elements, including oxygen, out into space. Once in space the oxygen is free to combine with the hydrogen already present (IOW the stuff that was not used up in star formation) and hey presto you have water in gaseous form which can then condense around intersellar dust particles or rocks and you get an icy comet.

quote:

Thank you B - a logically thought out explanation - and well explained!

You're welcome

quote:

So where does this combining go on - are there H2O gaseous clouds out there somewhere (already made)? That comets pass through?

There is actually a helluva lot of water out there. This link should give you a better understanding (saves me typing )

quote:

I also find it interesting that comets are still orbiting our system. They should have burned out long ago - except for the existence of this mysterious Oort Cloud:

Whilst it is true that material is lost from comets as they approach the Sun (they are evaporating rather than burning) this does not prevent them acquiring material as they depart from the influence of the solar wind. Indeed as they travel away from the sun they actually pass through the material that is being evaporated!

quote:

Originally posted by LuisGarcia:
Hi RedJooles,

With a due sense of weariness, I am prepared to start again with your education on this matter, on condition that you actually make an effort to learn something this time (e.g. read your own posts as well as those of other people this time. Not even reading your own copy and paste posts really is extremely rude, you know).

This will certainly also involve you being prepared to forget many of the myths you parrot.

Such as this "wafer thin" nonsense.

What say you?

Rgds

Luis (Who trys, now and again, to remember the lurkers who may actually learn things around here.)

Thankyou Luis - as long as you don't expect me to just sit and nod, like the Churchill dog, and say 'oh yes' to everything!

If you accept that I will ask questions, and that I may beg to differ on some of your points, there really shouldn't be a problem!

I really don't mind when scientists say; "this is what we 'think' may have happened... we believe... we can not prove, but it is our hypothesis that..." etc, I really don't have a problem with it, and actually respect that more! It's when certain things are stated as 'fact', when there's a long way to go before that can be said, that I have a problem!

Scientists are 'amazed' and 'puzzled' by things that go against previous, so called, 'facts' almost on a daily basis (seemingly in the papers) - how can they be surprised by something, if they seemed so sure (and stated so) in the fist place?

Just a little more honesty, is all I'm asking!

You were one of the more level-headed postee's and very forthcoming with info - hopefully you can be again!

quote:

Originally posted by RedJooles:


Just a little more honesty, is all I'm asking!

No, honesty is not what you want. What you want is some little crevice to smuggle your imaginary god into.

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

quote:

I also find it interesting that comets are still orbiting our system. They should have burned out long ago - except for the existence of this mysterious Oort Cloud:

Whilst it is true that material is lost from comets as they approach the Sun (they are evaporating rather than burning) this does not prevent them acquiring material as they depart from the influence of the solar wind. Indeed as they travel away from the sun they actually pass through the material that is being evaporated!

Thanks for that B - very interesting article! Seems that 99% is in ice and the rest in gas form? Good old Earth has it in three forms; gas, liquid and ice - we are jolly lucky!!

Are they sure that it is H2O that they are observing:

"To look beyond the Earth's water vapor, the team used data from the space telescope ISO, the European Space Agency's Infrared Space Observatory. They knew that if light from a far-away object passed through some water vapor on its way to Earth, the water vapor would leave a chemical "fingerprint" on that light. Astronomers decided to search for this fingerprint in light from two regions in the galactic center that passes through several cold clouds on its way to Earth."

Could it be any other substance?

And water is only one of the key elements for life - amazing!!

"Science has proven that life cannot form spontaneously, water or no water. Lifeless chemicals do not, and cannot, form themselves into living, reproducing organisms. Liquid water is one, and only one, of a number of stringent requirements for life.

Our planet, Earth, lies in a particularly providential place for life to exist. Its orbit lies within what astronomers call the ‘habitable zone’. This narrow zone, just the right distance from the sun, is neither too hot nor too cold for liquid water to exist.

Earth also has an atmosphere that provides enough pressure for liquid water to exist and protects the surface from harmful radiation. The position of the moon in its orbit around the Earth is also significant. If the moon were any closer, the tidal forces would be massive, causing continental flooding at every high tide. If the moon were further away, its tidal influence would be too small, allowing marine environments to stagnate, resulting in the death of all marine life.

Astronomers searching for planets in other solar systems are keen to find Earth-like candidates. That’s because small rocky planets at just the right distance from their star are prime candidates for liquid water to exist, for without liquid water, the evolution of life would be impossible. But no matter where they have looked to date, they have found nothing.

Yet even if Earth-like planets are found, as we have seen, it takes more than just the possibility of liquid water to sustain life."
AiG