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Originally posted by ballyboneman:

I think that describes your position rather than mine. I am not the one who has closed himself off from the possibility of a non natural agent responsible for the origin of nature.

I don't close myself off to anything sensible that has credible evidence underpinning it. However if you think that the laughable absurdity that is Christianity in any way represents some elegant description of a "non-natural agent responsible blah blah" then you are way off the mark.

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And just who do you think is gonna do this 'stomping' whether metaphorical or literal? If the Elightenment, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hoxha, Kim Jong Ill etc couldn't do it what makes you think a handful of middleclass academics and their fawning followers are going to be any more successful? If it didn't have the potential to inflict immeasurable suffering as in the past and present this resurgence in 'atheism' would be hilarious.

This strawman is hilarious, no matter how many times it is stomped on the theists just keep repeating it like a mantra.

The "stompers" will be everyday people like you and me ... well perhaps more like me anyway , who simply say "nope, sorry, I don't buy any of this nonsense - it might make me feel good about myself but that doesn't make it true, and I value the truth". Yeah it might be a pipe dream that our kids are educated not to learnt rote fact but to think critically, and carry those skills into adult life, but hey, you did ask.

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The belief in meaning and purpose to life, existence and the universe appears hardwired into our brains

Maybe your brain, not mine. Also hard-wired into my brain is to seek out multiple sexual partners. I elect to over-ride that because my understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing. You might call that "moral" behaviour, indeed your beliefs require that you regularly over-ride your nature for the greater good. What puzzles me is that you are suddenly very happy to indulge these alleged deep-seated instincts to believe in purpose where there could conceivably be none. Such inconsistency barely makes your position look credible.

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Atheism presents a universe of cold, blind, pitiless indifference which adds nothing to the realities of the human condition;

How strange then that I am a content, happy, creative, productive, busy individual leading a life replete in both moderate material satisfaction, a good marriage with beautiful happy children, solid friendships yada yada yada. (Not that I wish to present my life as some sort of paragon free from occasional pain and difficulty - it isn't).

The universe is what the universe is. You either deal with that or you don't. If you do deal with reality rather than some twisted misrepresentation of it, you might find all that cognitive dissonance (eg guilt at "sin") just evaporating. In setting impossible standards to live by, religions have created much of the unhappiness in the world. I've shrugged that off, and my life is better for it.

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it offers nothing to help ameliorate the pain, struggle and suffering that is the reality of the majority of the earth's population. That is why I believe it is forever destined to be on the fringes.

Sure. Drug-taking will probably always win hands-down when it comes to blotting out reality (I included alcohol as a drug, of course). I'm glad you're at least honest about your intent to be dishonest, though of course I personally believe it's better to be entirely honest in the first place And here, I though dishonesty was a sin!

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Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

BB, just a small point. Why would a good christian want to go round deliberately annoying his enemies?

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Originally posted by ballyboneman:

The belief in meaning and purpose to life, existence and the universe appears hardwired into our brains and the search for it is inescapable and unstoppable.

Agreed, it does appear to be hardwired into our brains. This says nothing however, about whether or not it's actually TRUE. There are all sorts of theories about why this kind of hardwiring might have arisen - do you dismiss them?

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Atheism presents a universe of cold, blind, pitiless indifference which adds nothing to the realities of the human condition; it offers nothing to help ameliorate the pain, struggle and suffering that is the reality of the majority of the earth's population. That is why I believe it is forever destined to be on the fringes.

So, we should believe in myths and legends because they'll help to make us feel better? Is that it? So the truth doesn't stop the pain you feel as a human being - why not just take drugs the whole time, then?

Actually I've found that rejecting the lies of Christianity is quite liberating. But feel free to continue wrapping yourself in the duvet of delusion.

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Originally posted by CDarwin:

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Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

BB, just a small point. Why would a good christian want to go round deliberately annoying his enemies?

That is a humorous quotation not an instruction

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Originally posted by smokeAndMirrors:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ballyboneman:

[QUOTE]I don't close myself off to anything sensible that has credible evidence underpinning it.

And sensible is entirely subjective and not always correct. For example it was quite sensible to believe that the sun orbited the earth, and this was backed up by the available evidence. Senisble but ultimately proven wrong.

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However if you think that the laughable absurdity that is Christianity in any way represents some elegant description of a "non-natural agent responsible blah blah" then you are way off the mark.

Prove it.

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And just who do you think is gonna do this 'stomping' whether metaphorical or literal? If the Elightenment, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hoxha, Kim Jong Ill etc couldn't do it what makes you think a handful of middleclass academics and their fawning followers are going to be any more successful? If it didn't have the potential to inflict immeasurable suffering as in the past and present this resurgence in 'atheism' would be hilarious.

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This strawman is hilarious, no matter how many times it is stomped on the theists just keep repeating it like a mantra.

"Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Our propaganda necessarily includes propaganda for atheism.” Vladimir Lenin. You can't escape the historical evidence.

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The "stompers" will be everyday people like you and me ... well perhaps more like me anyway , who simply say "nope, sorry, I don't buy any of this nonsense - it might make me feel good about myself but that doesn't make it true, and I value the truth". Yeah it might be a pipe dream that our kids are educated not to learnt rote fact but to think critically, and carry those skills into adult life, but hey, you did ask.

This amounts to little more than wishful thinking. The evidence shows a worldwide increase in religiosity with Christianity being the fastest growing religion by conversion, followed closely by Islam due mainly to muslims having larger families.

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The belief in meaning and purpose to life, existence and the universe appears hardwired into our brains

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Maybe your brain, not mine.

I take it then that you are unaware of the studies concerning religious experiences and the temporal lobes?

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Also hard-wired into my brain is to seek out multiple sexual partners. I elect to over-ride that because my understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing. You might call that "moral" behaviour, indeed your beliefs require that you regularly over-ride your nature for the greater good.

Well precisely and infact that you choose not to indulge in multiple partners is, I would contend, more to do with being raised in a society formed and informed by Christian thought than with your professed "understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing" delusion.

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What puzzles me is that you are suddenly very happy to indulge these alleged deep-seated instincts to believe in purpose where there could conceivably be none. Such inconsistency barely makes your position look credible.

That just doesn't make any sense

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Atheism presents a universe of cold, blind, pitiless indifference which adds nothing to the realities of the human condition;

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How strange then that I am a content, happy, creative, productive, busy individual leading a life replete in both moderate material satisfaction, a good marriage with beautiful happy children, solid friendships yada yada yada. (Not that I wish to present my life as some sort of paragon free from occasional pain and difficulty - it isn't).

Nothing strange about it. Your comfortable lifestyle is the exception not the rule. You see no need or empirical evidence for God so you ignore or reject Him. But that is not suficient; you wish to deny God to everyone, even those who do see a need for Him and do see evidence for Him.

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In setting impossible standards to live by, religions have created much of the unhappiness in the world. I've shrugged that off, and my life is better for it.

This sounds more like a desire for moral autonomy; and the notion that religions have created much of the unhappiness in the world is self evidently BS. How could it have survived evolutionary pressures

Originally posted by smoke and mirrors:

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This is why religion should be stomped upon; it is the trait of the narrowest of minds.

How very broad-minded of you

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Originally posted by ballyboneman:

And sensible is entirely subjective and not always correct. For example it was quite sensible to believe that the sun orbited the earth, and this was backed up by the available evidence. Senisble but ultimately proven wrong.

Yeah, so let's believe things that aren't sensible because sensible can't be trusted? LOL!

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Prove it.

Prove... that I find Christianity absurd? OK. I find Christianity absurd. References to back it up evidentially? pretty much all my posts ever.

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"Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Our propaganda necessarily includes propaganda for atheism.” Vladimir Lenin. You can't escape the historical evidence.

:rolling:

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This amounts to little more than wishful thinking.

Yes, it seems so. Education is continuing to be undermined by superstition and indoctrination.

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I take it then that you are unaware of the studies concerning religious experiences and the temporal lobes?

I follow most things of this nature. Though what you seek to gain by pointing this out eludes me.

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Well precisely and infact that you choose not to indulge in multiple partners is, I would contend, more to do with being raised in a society formed and informed by Christian thought than with your professed "understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing" delusion.

There's no way you could know that though, is there? And anyway, "informed by Christian thought" is just a euphemism for "crippled by sexual guilt".

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Nothing strange about it. Your comfortable lifestyle is the exception not the rule. You see no need or empirical evidence for God so you ignore or reject Him. But that is not suficient; you wish to deny God to everyone, even those who do see a need for Him and do see evidence for Him.

As if you don't enjoy arguing about it! But yes, I do feel a need to protect the unwary from this brand of ignorance, in much the same way as I'd attempt to persuade a child not to smoke.

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This sounds more like a desire for moral autonomy; and the notion that religions have created much of the unhappiness in the world is self evidently BS.

Do I again have to post the link that shows the most religious societies to be the least happy ones?

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How could it have survived evolutionary pressures

Possibly the dumbest remark I've read on C4 ever.

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Originally posted by greenbelt:
Originally posted by smoke and mirrors:

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This is why religion should be stomped upon; it is the trait of the narrowest of minds.

How very broad-minded of you

Oh the irony.

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Originally posted by ballyboneman:
Well precisely and infact that you choose not to indulge in multiple partners is, I would contend, more to do with being raised in a society formed and informed by Christian thought than with your professed "understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing" delusion.

So, are the monogamous creatures in the animal kingdom also "informed by Christian thought".
Presumably the dirty, immoral, sleep-around criters will all burn in hell.

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Originally posted by free_thinker:

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:
Well precisely and infact that you choose not to indulge in multiple partners is, I would contend, more to do with being raised in a society formed and informed by Christian thought than with your professed "understanding is that if I acted upon it, in the long term it could be detrimetal to my wellbeing" delusion.

So, are the monogamous creatures in the animal kingdom also "informed by Christian thought".
Presumably the dirty, immoral, sleep-around criters will all burn in hell.

Feeling a little bored are we?

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Originally posted by smokeAndMirrors:

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

And sensible is entirely subjective and not always correct. For example it was quite sensible to believe that the sun orbited the earth, and this was backed up by the available evidence. Senisble but ultimately proven wrong.

Yeah, so let's believe things that aren't sensible because sensible can't be trusted? LOL!

Is this what passes for a refutation these days Maybe you'd like to have another go and show me where exactly my example fails.

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Prove it.

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Prove... that I find Christianity absurd? OK. I find Christianity absurd. References to back it up evidentially? pretty much all my posts ever.

No prove the validity of this statement as presented as fact "However if you think that the laughable absurdity that is Christianity in any way represents some elegant description of a "non-natural agent responsible blah blah" then you are way off the mark."

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"Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Our propaganda necessarily includes propaganda for atheism.” Vladimir Lenin. You can't escape the historical evidence.

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So, not able to respond to this either.

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This sounds more like a desire for moral autonomy; and the notion that religions have created much of the unhappiness in the world is self evidently BS.

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Do I again have to post the link that shows the most religious societies to be the least happy ones?

If it the study done by the dinosaur illustrator please do, I could do with a laugh.

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How could it have survived evolutionary pressures

Possibly the dumbest remark I've read on C4 ever.[/QUOTE]

Ah the good old Ad Hominem; a sure sign of a collapsing argument in my experience. Of course you could attempt to show how it is dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

Ah the good old Ad Hominem; a sure sign of a collapsing argument in my experience. Of course you could attempt to show how it is dumb.

Ah but then your "experience" is that

"In the beginning there was one god, who was Omnimax-perfect. He made some people and some rules for the people to obey, but he made sure that their instinctive nature was not to obey the rules. The first two people disobeyed when an evil snake created by him tempted them to disobey. So he slung their hook, but allowed them to create more people with their own children anyway (even though incest was a sin in the rule book). Then he got real mad when all these people didn't obey the rules either, even though he is omniscient and knows the future. So he killed them all and started again from pure stock. And they did it again. So he magically split himself into three, and sent one part down in human form, who was god but didn't know he was god even though god is omniscient, and then changed the rules completely. Then he sacrificed himself to himself to save us all from himself just to show all these bad people how clever he was that he had made all these screw-ups. Except he didn't die (and he was god so he couldn't die) so it wasn't a sacrifice at all but we have to be grateful for it anyway."

is a really sensible story, so why would anyone trust your judgement?

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Originally posted by smokeAndMirrors:

quote:

Originally posted by ballyboneman:

Ah the good old Ad Hominem; a sure sign of a collapsing argument in my experience. Of course you could attempt to show how it is dumb.

Ah but then your "experience" is that

>snipped banal strawman<

is a really sensible story, so why would anyone trust your judgement?

As it is apparent you are unable to answer I think we should just leave it there

NASA officer : Well Homer, it looks like you are the winner by default.

Homer : Default? The two sweetest words in the English language. Dee Fault, dee fault, dee fault, dee fault …