The Archbishop of Westminster has urged Christians to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem".
"I want to encourage people of faith to regard those without faith with deep esteem because the hidden God is active in their lives as well as in the lives of those who believe."
Richard Dawkins counters...
"There's absolutely no reason to take seriously someone who says, 'I believe it because I believe it.'
"God either exists or he doesn't. It's a matter of the truth."
boxing ring to settle it?
The thoughts of Chairman Al.
If a man takes no thought about what is distant, he will find sorrow near at hand.
Originally posted by Venutius: Why not? Any believer in any form of spirituality is going to assume that all others have that same spirituality held within, even if that is denied.
But surely respecting someone, or more importantly their position has to include recognising that they could be right, they may have a point. This is the position that most atheists take, i.e. show me some credible evidence and I will change my view. The archbishop is not advocating respect he is advocating pity. He is saying the starting point of a dialogue is to assume that his god is 'active in their lives', and thus the godless heathen is necessarily mistaken, or just plain wrong.
Originally posted by Venutius: Why not? Any believer in any form of spirituality is going to assume that all others have that same spirituality held within, even if that is denied.
But surely respecting someone, or more importantly their position has to include recognising that they could be right, they may have a point. This is the position that most atheists take, i.e. show me some credible evidence and I will change my view. The archbishop is not advocating respect he is advocating pity. He is saying the starting point of a dialogue is to assume that his god is 'active in their lives', and thus the godless heathen is necessarily mistaken, or just plain wrong.
How is that compatible with respect?
Yes, that is true. But at least he's telling us to treat you as human, there are others you know.... ;o)
Perhaps you can respect him for his hidden atheist within? Might be a short lived one though.
Wrong again. He is instructing xians to treat atheists as some sort of sub-human, humans to stupid/insensitive/arrogant to recognise his sky fairy. [QUOTE]
No, he's telling them to raise you a little in their estimation. As I see it. He's saying "they are not all devil worshipping tricksters, some of them are just a bit misguided. (This is meant to be humerous)
[QUOTE] You must know this makes no sense at all.
Just a joke, but based on the possibility that on ones death bed, if you are correct, that there is a chance for the realisation of the truth to exert itself.
Originally posted by Venutius: Just a joke, but based on the possibility that on ones death bed, if you are correct, that there is a chance for the realisation of the truth to exert itself.
Run that past me again. Is this a badly phrased wager
Having spent my whole life asking and waiting for a theist to offer some evidence (any evidence) to support their belief, finally getting some would be a relief.
I really cannot offer you any evidence whatsoever. All I can say is that my concepts of faith based human behaviour has added greatly to my understanding of the operations of society at the macro scale.
To sum it up, I think we are all mad. Take that anyway you want it. There are some people that seem less mad than others but it would appear that this madness is endemic within our society.
My interpretation of madness is behaviour that has a tendancy to be self destructive. In my view its the result of many generations of negative behaviour that has taught us all far too many self destructive habits at every level.
Originally posted by Venutius: I really cannot offer you any evidence whatsoever.
Nor can anyone and anyway, I wasn't asking you to.
The point I was making was that in the very unlikely event of your scenario, I would be happy to finally find the evidence that has so far been so illusive.
If I was created by a deity to have an inquiring evidence-driven brain, and he had pre-written my life (as those poor kids on jebus camp were told) then it would come as no surprise to god that I would not find any evidence for him until death.
They may ask for atheism to be held in some esteem (however patronisingly) but that would be empty rhetoric, because secularity's gripe is that religion has automatic access to our political and social institutions. When the playing field is level, then Archbishop Whoever can offer the crumbs again - though I doubt many would listen.
-------------------- If you feel like you're always in the dark - switch the lights on!
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Winston Churchill
No belief in any higher power whatsoever shows a potential independence of thought that is a lot more use than blind accetance of dogma.
I never believed in anything, I did feel that there was more to life than science currently expained and I have always felt that all life is connected from an evironmental perspective. Apparently that made me a pagan atheist.
Originally posted by Venutius: No belief in any higher power whatsoever shows a potential independence of thought that is a lot more use than blind accetance of dogma.
Then again, it can also mean, like me that the persecution of ones childhood caused one to reject in entirity any form of spiritual/religious belief.
Originally posted by Venutius: No belief in any higher power whatsoever shows a potential independence of thought that is a lot more use than blind accetance of dogma.
Well, yes, but are you saying this makes atheists closer to god?
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I never believed in anything,
Of course you do, it just that some of us back that belief with evidence and reason.
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I did feel that there was more to life than science currently expained
Such as?
quote:
and I have always felt that all life is connected from an evironmental perspective.
We are all made of the same atoms. What more than that do you mean by 'connected'?
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Apparently that made me a pagan atheist.
Just because someone said that does not make it so.
Originally posted by free_thinker: Well, yes, but are you saying this makes atheists closer to god?
Because when the time comes, you will not have the crazy dogma to send you to your own hell. If there is a "god" then you will actually be in a lot better position to recognise it than someone locked into someone elses belief system.
I do believe in god, so we will disagree with that, but I have no need to try to persuade you of it. I do not think you are doomed to hell and I see no reason why I should try make you believe in anything other than what you feel is right.
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I never believed in anything, Of course you do, it just that some of us back that belief with evidence and reason.
Past tense - I never believed in anything, rather I was actually determined not to believe in anything.
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I did feel that there was more to life than science currently expained Such as?
Gravity
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and I have always felt that all life is connected from an evironmental perspective. We are all made of the same atoms. What more than that do you mean by 'connected'?
We are part of an elaborate food/environmental chain. Our religions, esecially Xtian's have caused us to lose sight of that. All tha crap about man having dominion over the earth and all its creatures is really starting to take a toll.
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Just because someone said that does not make it so.
Hence the term apparently, and by that time I was no longer an atheist anyway.
so, is it an atheist, 'pagan atheist', 'generic christian', some other sort of theist, someone who believes in nothing, or asserts that everything is belief (like 'coffee')?
