i've heard many things from many different people regarding this matter and am myself convinced that no such thing happened, but would like to hear the views and opinions of everyone else. i've listened to a lecture wherein which the lecturer himeself was once an orthodox Roman Catholic and has after much deliberation, questioning, and research has come to the conclusion that its completely illogical to belive that Jesus died on the cross. if you look at the facts, Christians believe that Jesus is God and had to die on the cross to wipe clean the sins of all of mankind. if this is the case then does this mean that God died? How is it possible for God to die?
but Christians don't see death as the end but just passing on to another place - heaven, and wouldn't he be dying to be with God, to be re - united, Christians don't believe you just disappear when you die and as for immortality, surely being in heaven would still be like being mortal? I dunno, if you can't believe what it says in the bible about Jesus dying on the cross, you can't believe anything it says.
You should read Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice Challenges that very ideal That theoretically, jesus who was supposed to be god incarnate wasn't truly living as a human because he always knew he had a certain place in heaven. Unlike mortals who don't
Originally posted by gatz: i've heard many things from many different people regarding this matter and am myself convinced that no such thing happened, but would like to hear the views and opinions of everyone else. i've listened to a lecture wherein which the lecturer himeself was once an orthodox Roman Catholic and has after much deliberation, questioning, and research has come to the conclusion that its completely illogical to belive that Jesus died on the cross. if you look at the facts, Christians believe that Jesus is God and had to die on the cross to wipe clean the sins of all of mankind. if this is the case then does this mean that God died? How is it possible for God to die?
Hi, Gatz.
Right. Where do we start?
Let's begin with the cleric who changed his mind. This is what we call a loss of faith...and it sounds pretty serious in his case. We can't understand why this happens to people...but it does. Just as often it works in reverse! If you are interested in pursuing this in depth (and honestly) then go get ye to a lecture given by a still-practising, orthodox RC! He'll put the story straight for you.
However, in the meantime. It is a tenet of the Faith - an absolute certainty - that God the Son (God is the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit) lived on earth, was crucified, died and was buried. He rose (was resurrected) on the third day.
Yes, He died, and was buried - in a stone tomb - and the stone would have taken several men to roll aside - and there were guards posted.
God became Man, therefore was human, and therefore it was possible for Him to die.
God the Son, Jesus Christ, is the most perfect human being there ever was - or is. He is both God and Man - both divine and human. These are going to be strange concepts if you've never looked into Christianity in depth. But let me assure you it's worth it!
Yeah but he knew he was definately going to heaven. So surely it defeats the point of becoming human To truly experience being human he would've had no assurance of his entrance to heaven. Which he had before he became human. ???????????????????
Christ is the most perfect human being there has ever been or will ever be. We are not perfect human beings. Christ lived out his life on earth perfectly. He was like us in every way but one - he was without sin. He was pretty much unlike us in that He was ready to give his life for us, even - and this is a crucial point - when he knew he was hated and despised by the ones he was dying for.
He went through the most appalling death imaginable. He suffered extremes of terror, sorrow and loneliness in the garden of Gethsamane.
Who among us would put ourselves through all of that, for a bunch of people who despise you? The question about Him knowing he would ascend to heaven AFTERwards is a non-starter. Why come down from heaven at all if you knew all that was going to happen to you down here?
If you compare it to having infinate stay in heaven 30 years is nothing. I don't dissbelieve Jesus was alive in fact I do dissbelieve he was a deity incarnate Just my personal opinion For all the people persecuted at the time when he was as well, who's to say they weren't without sin. Little babies who die are without sin So are many people Yet dissbelieving in god would grant them the sneers from christians telling them they are off to hell. Beggers belief, sin is subjective. I even find it subjective between christians
This is a minor diversion. I hope we can get back to the subject soon.
But to any who think I'm 'sending all non-believers to hell'.
The fact is, we tell people, we horrible Christians, how to avoid going to hell. We don't say anyone's going to hell. To do so would be presumptious and a sin. But to not WARN when you have a chance, is likewise a sin.
If you read my other posts you'll hopefully see what I mean. Hopefully most people will be open to reading without a prior agenda.
Is that the best you can do? I question it because it's there to be scrutinized Isn't that what people are supposed to do Believe it or not i would like to have an understanding of this. You can't think of anything to say so you tell me to get a life. My points still stand YOUR post to me speaks volumes
Right, ok. Maybe I misunderstood your last post...so hot off the last one, it did appear you were still grinding that axe. If you weren't then I'm sorry.
Like i say, my post still stands. I asked questions You flew off the handle Maybe you don't like being asked questions At least i am upfront enough to ask and question them. Most people either become stronger in their beliefs when they are questioned so i don't see what your problem is with me asking them
Originally posted by Afterlife: If you compare it to having infinate stay in heaven 30 years is nothing.
Being flayed alive, having inch-long thorns pressed into your scalp, being nailed by your hands and feet to a cross, isn't nothing.
quote:
For all the people persecuted at the time when he was as well, who's to say they weren't without sin. Little babies who die are without sin .
They are not without ORIGINAL sin. We are all born with original sin (except for Mary, the Mother of God..but maybe we'd better touch on this elsewhere - else it will get confusing)
Christ was the Son of God. He was the deity incarnate. He humbled himself to be born on earth and allowed himself to be put to death. No person, baby or anyone else, has the divinity and stainlessness of Christ. Only Christ has this divinity. He was truly without sin.
quote:
Yet dissbelieving in god would grant them the sneers from christians telling them they are off to hell..
No we don't.
quote:
Beggers belief, sin is subjective.
So what you think is right and wrong is down to how you feel about it? That's subjective.
Originally posted by gatz: i've heard many things from many different people regarding this matter and am myself convinced that no such thing happened, but would like to hear the views and opinions of everyone else. i've listened to a lecture wherein which the lecturer himeself was once an orthodox Roman Catholic and has after much deliberation, questioning, and research has come to the conclusion that its completely illogical to belive that Jesus died on the cross. if you look at the facts, Christians believe that Jesus is God and had to die on the cross to wipe clean the sins of all of mankind. if this is the case then does this mean that God died? How is it possible for God to die?
Christians dont believe Jesus was God, they believe he was the son of God.
Ok so you say that Christians don’t believe that Jesus was God but rather the son of God. So then what entitles Jesus who is himself a human and unlike God has finite characteristics, to die for the sins of mankind. What makes Jesus so special? - Being the son of God as you may presume? – Being sinless as the other posts suggest? And being the son of god, why does Jesus have to die? Why does anyone have to die for the sins of all of mankind? Some of the attributes and characteristics of God is the Most Merciful, the Oft-forgiving, with these characteristics why cant God just forgive mankind instead of having not just anyone die for their sins but his very own son?
Ok so you say that Christians don’t believe that Jesus was God but rather the son of God. So then what entitles Jesus who is himself a human and unlike God has finite characteristics, to die for the sins of mankind. What makes Jesus so special? - Being the son of God as you may presume? – Being sinless as the other posts suggest? And being the son of god, why does Jesus have to die? Why does anyone have to die for the sins of all of mankind? Some of the attributes and characteristics of God is the Most Merciful, the Oft-forgiving, with these characteristics why cant God just forgive mankind instead of having not just anyone die for their sins but his very own son?
Hold up, Gatz. Christians DO believe that Jesus Christ is God. See my answer to you above.
Getting to grips with that isn't easy. It takes a lot of learning, reading, and most importantly, a willingness for conversion of heart.
It's huge theology you're touching on here. God sent His Son to be our redeemer. On our own we have no merit. We can do nothing on our own to merit eternal life with God after we die. Jesus Christ, God Himself, but in the person of the Son, is the only one who could provide the 'bridge' that links us back to God. This bridge was destroyed at the very start, with the very first sin of disobedience.
Sin against God is infinite. Man on his own could do nothing to win back God's favour. Only God's own and only Son could do this for us.
Only through His death would our death be overcome. This doesn't mean we don't die in our bodies - we do. But we have regained the chance to be reunited with God our father after we die. Without Christ's eternal sacrifice, we would die without this chance.
[/QUOTE] “Christians don’t believe Jesus was God, they believe he was the son of God.” By unchained
[/QUOTE] “Hold up, Gatz. Christians DO believe that Jesus Christ is God.” By Via curicus
The only reason why I said that Christians don’t believe that Jesus was God is because of an earlier post from Unchained – what am I supposed to think here crucis that there is a difference of opinion on such a fundamental aspect of the Christian belief.
[/QUOTE] “Jesus Christ, God Himself, but in the person of the Son,” by via crucis
This, supposedly your implicit explanation of the Holy Trinity is something that I will have difficulty in understanding. How is it possible that Jesus can be God and yet be the son of God? Pleas explain.
[QUOTE] “Sin against God is infinite. Man on his own could do nothing to win back God's favour. Only God's own and only Son could do this for us”. by via crucis
By saying this are you then denying the attributes of God – The Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving. Are you really saying that repentance in Christianity does not exist and that God does not accept the repentance of the one who has sinned? If so I would regard this as being a great slander against God, blasphemy and heresy in its extreme. In actual effect you are accusing God of being imperfect as he is not able to forgive the mistakes and sins of His very own creation who are not infallible. It seems rather illogical to create something which is not infallible yet you your self are not willing to forgive them their wrongdoings even when they sincerely repent to you seeking your forgiveness.
[QUOTE] “It's huge theology you're touching on here. God sent His Son to be our redeemer. On our own we have no merit. We can do nothing on our own to merit eternal life with God after we die. Jesus Christ, God Himself, but in the person of the Son, is the only one who could provide the 'bridge' that links us back to God. This bridge was destroyed at the very start, with the very first sin of disobedience.” by via crucis
Don’t you think the above Christian teachings are a bit unfair? Just look at the injustice here – the rest of mankind is having to pay and suffer for a sin that some one else committed. – Scenario: if I stole some sweets from a sweet shop would it be fair for my parents to punish my brother? Absolutely not!
following my above argument, another characteristic of God is The MOST JUST. The above Christian teachings breed nothing but injustice. this is a contradiction in Christianity and portraying God to be yet again imperfect.
Have posted this before. It's sort of on thread as you'll see by the final centence.
Recently read some interesting information on carbon dating.
It appears that ancient relics build up a layer of micro organisms that can lead to false results. These have been demonstrated by microbiologists. A mummy was tested plus some of the cloth it was mummified in. The results were a staggering 1700 years apart! It appears that these organisms can make up to over 60% of the material. They are not removed by the current cleaning methods used prior to carbon dating and so greatly distort the results. It is suggested the reason the church may not have a problem with the shroud being declared a fake is because if it is shown to be real, the bleeding patterns would suggest that the body was still alive when wrapped in the cloth! i.e he did not die on the cross!
Following your suggested opinion that Jesus did not die on the cross based on the carbon dated retrieved evidence, many Christians are still adamant in believing that he did – that something God like actually died. Yet if we look at your supposed evidence which show that the “bleeding patterns would suggest that he was still alive” – the fact that Jesus was bleeding proves that he is not Divine and not from a Divine entity i.e. he is not the son of God. We as humans have more in common with worms than we do with God. If God wanted to, why would he choose a human to be his son with our many flaws and our finite characteristics?
Originally posted by Greenjack: Have posted this before. It's sort of on thread as you'll see by the final centence.
Recently read some interesting information on carbon dating.
It appears that ancient relics build up a layer of micro organisms that can lead to false results. These have been demonstrated by microbiologists. A mummy was tested plus some of the cloth it was mummified in. The results were a staggering 1700 years apart! It appears that these organisms can make up to over 60% of the material. They are not removed by the current cleaning methods used prior to carbon dating and so greatly distort the results. It is suggested the reason the church may not have a problem with the shroud being declared a fake is because if it is shown to be real, the bleeding patterns would suggest that the body was still alive when wrapped in the cloth! i.e he did not die on the cross!
yes GJ but I answered that on that other thread. RC Church has no problem with Turin Shroud being the Shroud of Christ...though I don't think there's been an official statement on it (ie there is on Lourdes, Fatima etc.)
The only reason why I said that Christians don’t believe that Jesus was God is because of an earlier post from Unchained – what am I supposed to think here crucis that there is a difference of opinion on such a fundamental aspect of the Christian belief.
I'm not aware of any Christian church which says that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God. I might be wrong - as there are a lot of denominations, but they all started life as the Catholic Church.
That notwithstanding, all the mainstream Christian churches agree that Christ IS the Son of God.
quote:
“Jesus Christ, God Himself, but in the person of the Son,” by via crucis
This, supposedly your implicit explanation of the Holy Trinity is something that I will have difficulty in understanding. How is it possible that Jesus can be God and yet be the son of God? Pleas explain..
Think of a shamrock - like St Patrick did. Three leaves - yet one. Purists will say they are leaflets, not leaves, but that doesn't take away from the beautiful simplicity of the allegory.
Another way...One man. But at three stages of his life he is a baby, a young man and a distinguished older man. Three persons - one individual.
I'm not saying Christ is a young man and God the Father an old man, any more than I'm saying the Trinity is a leaf. But they are two very simple ways of looking at a truth that the human mind, in its present darkened state, cannot comprehend.
We are called to a truth that is yet hidden from us here.
quote:
“Sin against God is infinite. Man on his own could do nothing to win back God's favour. Only God's own and only Son could do this for us”. by via crucis
By saying this are you then denying the attributes of God – The Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving. Are you really saying that repentance in Christianity does not exist and that God does not accept the repentance of the one who has sinned? If so I would regard this as being a great slander against God, blasphemy and heresy in its extreme. In actual effect you are accusing God of being imperfect as he is not able to forgive the mistakes and sins of His very own creation who are not infallible. It seems rather illogical to create something which is not infallible yet you your self are not willing to forgive them their wrongdoings even when they sincerely repent to you seeking your forgiveness.
OK, so your assumptions of me are already a little strong. I make no such assumptions of you...I am only explaining our faith. please refrain from accusing me...it's not fair, and I'm not doing it to you.
Quote: Are you really saying that repentance in Christianity does not exist and that God does not accept the repentance of the one who has sinned? end quote
No, of course I'm not saying that. Repentance in Christianity of course exists. But Christ by His redemptive sacrifice made it all possible. You agree or at least you say that God is all-powerful and all-just, all-merciful and so on. Man clearly is none of these things. So, when our first parents sinned, their sin against God was very, very great - because He is the almighty Just and Merciful One. Could it not be possible therefore that any sin against Him, the Almighty, can have no way back from anything we weak and sinful creatures can do? But how much He loved us, by sending down the only one who could make that sacrifice on our behalf!
How great a loving Father He must be, to want our redemption so much.
quote:
In actual effect you are accusing God of being imperfect as he is not able to forgive the mistakes and sins of His very own creation who are not infallible. It seems rather illogical to create something which is not infallible yet you your self are not willing to forgive them their wrongdoings even when they sincerely repent to you seeking your forgiveness.
Again - the thing about sin against the Almighty Creator being infinitely grave. By the way - I meant infinitely grave, not infinite. Made a slip of the keyboard!
Perfect repentence, in our fallen state, was not possible. We were fallen. Stained, if you like.
We believe that the fathers in the Old Testament e.g. Abraham, ie who lived before Christ, rested in a form of limbo, because their lives were so holy - and yet they were in this state of original sin, and thus not yet perfected to live in the presence of God, nor look upon His face.
quote:
“It's huge theology you're touching on here. God sent His Son to be our redeemer. On our own we have no merit. We can do nothing on our own to merit eternal life with God after we die. Jesus Christ, God Himself, but in the person of the Son, is the only one who could provide the 'bridge' that links us back to God. This bridge was destroyed at the very start, with the very first sin of disobedience.” by via crucis
Don’t you think the above Christian teachings are a bit unfair? Just look at the injustice here – the rest of mankind is having to pay and suffer for a sin that some one else committed. – Scenario: if I stole some sweets from a sweet shop would it be fair for my parents to punish my brother? Absolutely not!
But sin against the sweet shop owner is not an infinitely grave sin. The sweet shop owner is not Almighty God (although I'm sure some of them think they are)
Christian teaching IS just. We teach that all have a way back to God the Father...and that way is through Christ, His Son. Living the life that Christ told us to live is following Christ.
You might read the New Testament for the whole story.
