I'm no historian but on a search for this
In google
I found an interesting article http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html
May be a little biased but hey it's a start and we'll no doubt have the other view point.

>I found an interesting article

An understatement, Afterlife. It's a cracking article. Many thanks for that.

quote:

Hello VC
I have had a book recommended to me; "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew by Bart D. Ehrman"

Haven't read it yet but from what I can gather it presents evidence of the "christian" groups that haven't survived, mostly due to accusations and persecution as heretics. I understand some of these groups ragarded jesus christ as a man and not actually the son of god.

I will report back when I have read it but don't hold your breath

hiya GJ
look forward to it.
I know we don't hold the same views but it's always nice talking to you

quote:

So you have to be an almighty deity to truly exact revenge on a global scale?

nope, you have to be an ordinary sinful man for that. After all I don't remember God gassing the Jews, starting the first World War (or the Second), setting up the Gulags, massacring thousands in Rwanda, Sudan, Cambodia...

quote:

Originally posted by pure evil:
i don't think he existed....well maybe he existed but i don't think he did all those great things

Well, at least you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Better than nothing ..

scientific reference and notes on the physical death of Christ
http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/

i think what matters is that he rose after he had died and therefore hadn't really died?!?

But the bible can't agree on anything of that
So how can christians conclude that the man they call Jesus was actually the "son" of "god"

quote:

Originally posted by via Crucis:
It is a tenet of the Faith - an absolute certainty - that God the Son (God is the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit) lived on earth, was crucified, died and was buried. He rose (was resurrected) on the third day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by via Crucis:
God became Man, therefore was human, and therefore it was possible for Him to die.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by via Crucis:
God the Son, Jesus Christ, is the most perfect human being there ever was - or is. He is both God and Man - both divine and human.

Why should anyone accept the teachings on the Holy Trinity? Well the simple answer is they shouldn't especially Christians themselves. I only say this because there is no evidence in the Bible of Jesus actually mentioning the word Trinity.

About 500 years ago a Jewish philosopher (can’t remember his name but I’ll get back to you on that) said when confronted with the Christian belief could understand that God was once God and then became human but no longer God. What he couldn’t understand was that God could be both human and God, which is impossible as God does not change from one state to another, he is immutable. For e.g. if I had a ball of clay in my hand and manipulated it to form a cube (i.e. with edges) the clay has now taken on the form of a cube. It would now be incorrect and illogical to call it ball shaped – it is no longer a ball!

As for Jesus having to sacrifice himself so that our forgiveness could be accepted by God, that is many Christians say that “Jesus had to pay a price for our sins”: in the Lord’s Prayer Jesus taught his disciples how to pray, when invoking upon God that they should say ‘forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us’. In a much more modern translation its: ‘forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors’. So how do you forgive someone who owes you a debt?
Do you say: “you know that money you owe me? Forget it. Now owe me the money back.” Is this fair?!
If you forgive something, no price, nothing is paid! Why did Jesus have to pay a price by dying on the cross, when he was already teaching his disciples the manner in which they should ask forgiveness from God even before his death? So why did Jesus have to sacrifice himself for us, because God was already accepting our forgiveness even before his death? His sacrifice was for nothing?

Asarualim
Did you see my link?
You seem like you'd find it interesting.

True, Asarualim. Also we must remember there were no daily papers or instant video pictures to accompany the 'events', and witnesses must have been a little thin on the ground.

I'm sure a case could be made for the existence of Sherlock Holmes. And he's only a recent phenomenon :-)

I didn’t start this discussion with the intention of ridiculing Christians, or Christianity for that matter, but what I was hoping to promote was a different way of thinking which involved asking questions regarding the simplest of matters – the fundamental aspects of the Christian belief, and to see if Christians themselves are able to explain it clearly, logically, without any ambiguity. It just seems like Christians themselves have a difference of opinion on such a huge pillar of their faith, to an extent this really questions the “truth” of their religion, and whether it should be accepted at all.

No Jesus (pbuh) didnt die on the cross, and ill prove it to you later on this evening, Inshallah

quote:

Originally posted by WaheedM:
No Jesus (pbuh) didnt die on the cross, and ill prove it to you later on this evening, Inshallah

hey waheedM,
feel as obliged as you like, this should be very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by gatz:

quote:

Originally posted by WaheedM:
No Jesus (pbuh) didnt die on the cross, and ill prove it to you later on this evening, Inshallah

hey waheedM,
feel as obliged as you like, this should be very interesting.

just started typing now

[/QUOTE]“Christians don’t believe Jesus was God, they believe he was the son of God.” By unchained[/QUOTE]

If Christians believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, what then is the purpose of Marriage?
If Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, are you Christians trying to tell me that God had a son without marriage?!

Now do you see how absurd this sounds?

quote:

Originally posted by WaheedM:

“Christians don’t believe Jesus was God, they believe he was the son of God.” By unchained[/QUOTE]

If Christians believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, what then is the purpose of Marriage?
If Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, are you Christians trying to tell me that God had a son without marriage?!

Now do you see how absurd this sounds?[/QUOTE]

i understand where your coming from. its like saying if Jesus is the son, God his father, and Mary his mother. does this then mean that God fornicated with Mary? or maybe he married her first?!

Iv nearly typed up my reply where i will prove to the christians from their bible that Jesus did not die on the cross, ill posted very soon. inshallah

quote:

Originally posted by gatz:

quote:

Originally posted by WaheedM:

“Christians don’t believe Jesus was God, they believe he was the son of God.” By unchained

If Christians believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, what then is the purpose of Marriage?
If Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, are you Christians trying to tell me that God had a son without marriage?!

Now do you see how absurd this sounds?[/QUOTE]

i understand where your coming from. its like saying if Jesus is the son, God his father, and Mary his mother. does this then mean that God fornicated with Mary? or maybe he married her first?![/QUOTE]

Look at what the Quran and the Bible teaches about the birth of Jesus

This is what the Holy Quran Say about the Birth of Jesus (pbuh)

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

"O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with pens (or arrows), as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."
"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so; Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,"

"And (appoint him) as a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; Holy Quran: Sura Al Imraan 3:42 - 49

This is what the bible says about the birth of Jesus

The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God. Bible: Luke 1:35

Which version would you show to your sister, your mum, your wife etc
The biblical verse conjures up a horrible image
I know which one id go for, the Holy Quran without a doubt.

Gatz, Christ is the centre of Christianity, not of Islam.

Followers of Islam do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. All Christians (with the odd 'odd' exception) do.

There is no argument between Christians.

The Koran was written centuries after the Bible and is fact a mixture of ideologies, with many adapted from the Bible. Fact. No offence, but there it is.

Gatz, I know you didn't raise the issue to ridule Christians, and this has come across in your posts. But others have this as their only agenda.

So I do hope you continue looking, and with courage and honesty. If you do you'll undoubtedly come across the truth you're looking for.

Adieu

VC

I notice you completely ignore my link VC.
Perhaps you'd like to conter balance the points made in the link.

such as this one (there is more than this one)

quote:

The New Testament "Evidence"

The elimination of the OT leaves only the New Testament (NT) "evidence" and extrabiblical material to be considered. Essentially, the NT is composed of two types of documents: letters and would-be biographies (the so-called gospels). A third category of writing, apocalyptic, c of which the Book of Revelation is an example, also exists, but it gives no support for the historicity of Jesus. In fact, it would appear to be an intellectual fossil of the thought-world from which Christianity sprang - a Jewish apocalypse that was reworked for Christian use. 8 The main character of the book (referred to 28 times) would seem to be "the Lamb," an astral being seen in visions (no claims to historicity here!), and the book overall is redolent of ancient astrology. 9

The name Jesus occurs only seven times in the entire book, Christ only four times, and Jesus Christ only twice! While Revelation may very well derive from a very early period (contrary to the views of most biblical scholars, who deal with the book only in its final form), the Jesus of which it whispers obviously is not a man. He is a supernatural being. He has not yet acquired the physiological and metabolic properties of which we read in the gospels. The Jesus of Revelation is a god who would later be made into a man - not a man who would later become a god, as liberal religious scholars would have it.

Just one quote from the many to choose from

>Followers of Islam do not believe that
>Jesus was the Son of God. All Christians
>(with the odd 'odd' exception) do.

'Believe' being the operative word, VC :-)

quote:

Originally posted by via Crucis:
The Koran was written centuries after the Bible and is fact a mixture of ideologies, with many adapted from the Bible. Fact. No offence, but there it is.
VC

"the Kora...a mixture of ideologies"? Please explain to me where in the Koran the religion of Islam differs regarding the ideology that it is trying to preach? please direct me to a particular chapter in the Koran so that i may look it up for my self.

The belief of Jesus' existence and in his Prophethood is absolutely imperative in Islam that if you reject this, you are no longer considered a muslim. This is how important Jesus is to Islam and to Muslims!

Jesus survived the cross as Thomas felt the wounds in his side and he drank wine and eat meat. Nicodemus revived him in the tomb as indicated by the Myrh and alloes (healing ointments that he had recentluy shown him)
He travelled through Syria to India intending to return in his life time, though he never did. He probably had children with an Indian and lead a quiet life.