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Originally posted by MizDemeanour:

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Originally posted by kevlar:

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Originally posted by MizDemeanour:

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Originally posted by Curls:
IMHO guilt is just pawning off responsibility, by giving yourself a mental thrashing you justify your behaviour. When in fact you actually don't at all. It detracts from a persons actions.

agree. guilt is a selfish emotion, not one concerned with the effect we have on others.

Could not disagree more. Guilt, for me, is something I try to avoid because it creates anxiety, and the best way to avoid it is by doing nothing wrong.

you can't avoid doing things 'wrong' in life, its all in the perspective.

I really can't see where you are coming from here at all. If you are given the too much change in a shop you have the option of doing the wrong or the right thing. If you find someones mobile in a taxi you have the option of doing the wrong or right thing. There are a few things that are perspectively right or wrong, but most right and wrongs in life are universal.

guilt is just a self indulgent discussion with oneself about oneself.

Discussions with oneself about oneself are just about examining who you are. If we have aspirations to be a better person then we must examine what we are now. Self examination and reflection are a part of this. And guilt is a good indicator for the things you would wish to do better in the future or things you wish to atone for that are in the past.

remorse is the thing that really takes account of the effect of your actions on others.

I understand the difference between remorse, which I would say is a more emotive for of regret. But guilt is the internal emotive self beating your psyche automaticaly gives you for things you regret or are remorsful about. Guilt is not something you decide to feel it is an automatic mechanism related to ones conscience. I am very glad for guilt and would fear a world where nobody felt guilty.

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Originally posted by kevlar:
I really can't see where you are coming from here at all. If you are given the too much change in a shop you have the option of doing the wrong or the right thing. If you find someones mobile in a taxi you have the option of doing the wrong or right thing. There are a few things that are perspectively right or wrong, but most right and wrongs in life are universal.
I am very glad for guilt and would fear a world where nobody felt guilty.

you're obviously not a parent.... i do things all the time that are 'wrong' in my children's eyes, for example limiting their freedoms and their poscket money and making them do chores and eat vegetables... i do not feel either guilty or remoseful about this becuase i judge that their best interest is served by my actions. when they are 18 they can go into therapy and berate me for it if they so wish...

some parents do feel 'guilty' if their child cries/sulks/ is laughed at at school for not having the latest trainers and accordingly become over indulgent... this assuages their guilt but does not help their children.

guilt is a very socially constructed emotion and usually punitive or excusatory. nothing is gained by feeling bad about something after the event unless you change your behaviour and the capacity to change your behaviour is embodied not in guilt but in remorse.

^ the pointlessness of guilt is exemplified in religion where people may live perfectly 'good' lives but are unable for whatever reason to do so by the strictures of their religion... they may be plagued by guilt when they have done nothing wrong. catholics are very good at this, and graham greene writes beautifully on the destructive nature of guilt in many of his books.

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Originally posted by MizDemeanour:

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Originally posted by kevlar:
I really can't see where you are coming from here at all. If you are given the too much change in a shop you have the option of doing the wrong or the right thing. If you find someones mobile in a taxi you have the option of doing the wrong or right thing. There are a few things that are perspectively right or wrong, but most right and wrongs in life are universal.
I am very glad for guilt and would fear a world where nobody felt guilty.

you're obviously not a parent.... i do things all the time that are 'wrong' in my children's eyes, for example limiting their freedoms and their poscket money and making them do chores and eat vegetables... i do not feel either guilty or remoseful about this becuase i judge that their best interest is served by my actions. when they are 18 they can go into therapy and berate me for it if they so wish...

some parents do feel 'guilty' if their child cries/sulks/ is laughed at at school for not having the latest trainers and accordingly become over indulgent... this assuages their guilt but does not help their children.

guilt is a very socially constructed emotion and usually punitive or excusatory. nothing is gained by feeling bad about something after the event unless you change your behaviour and the capacity to change your behaviour is embodied not in guilt but in remorse.

I don't know why you would say I am obviously not a parent from the said paragraph. Nothing obvious there at all.

In my statement I did say that there are a few perspective right and wrongs, for instance pornography. However, the examples you gave I would not view as examples of perspective, as most people would agree that giving kids everything they want is wrong. If we were going on your logic you would say that peadophilia was just down to perspectives, which it is, but I was sure we were not talking in these terms. As every right minded person would say peadophilia is a universal wrong, even though to the perspective of the peadophile it is not.

As to: "nothing is gained by feeling bad about something after the event unless you change your behaviour and the capacity to change your behaviour is embodied not in guilt but in remorse", I would agree, but I would also say guilt is the precursor of remorse.

Whilst I agree in general I would qualify some of your comments.

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Originally posted by kevlar:
peadophilia and perspective

Yes paedophilia is wrong and who cares what the paedophile themself thinks - their view is not of import. They know their actions are wrong that is why they do it in secrecy. However, perspective is applicable since the wrong doing must be judged in its cultural and social context. Since by definition it is the unlawful desire for children then one must be aware that this is dependant on what a particular society deems a child. Obviously with very young children almost all societies would say it is totally wrong but what if the child was say 14, in UK obviously it is illegal but not so in other countries. So perspective must be applied when making universal judgement on wrong.

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guilt and remorse

Again it comes down to perspective. As I said guilt is ownership of the action. All actions have guilt associated to them. However, we (wrongly) only think of this guilt as an emotion when the act is perceived as wrong. Do we feel guilty when we do something which makes someone happy? No therefore guilt is not a true emotion. Guilt is merely our acknowledgement of our responsiblity for the act but the emotion we feel is dependent on how we perceive the act. So we may feel happy, sad, remorseful, disappointed or any other true emotion irrespective of always being guilty.

kevlar you simplistically stated that 'most rights and wrongs are universal'. my point was to highlight that one person's right is another person's wrong, and that actually most things are perspectual rather than absolute. for example the stricutres on women in islam i take to be 'wrong' where others would take them to be 'right'. that however does not mean that i take an overly liberal western denigration of women as 'right' either... eg also the illegal down loading debate... your knowledge of it being 'wrong' did not induce any guilt in you until now apparently, and others are arguing for no guilt at getting one over on multinationals that fleece us anyway... certainly our laws say it is 'wrong' but most things in life are complex not simple.

you dismiss my example of parents actions with their children but the issue was guilt, and the whole point about guilt is it is induced not by 'universal' rights and wrongs but by social attitudes and values, and inner feelings. of course i don't think its a universal 'wrong' to bring up children with restrictions and values, but in terms of how they feel, children are sometimes too young to reckon out the complexitites and simply feel hurt or deprived or restricted and they cry and beg... and one could feel bad (guilty) about inducing unhappiness in another person (your argument for the redemptive power of guilt) and make oneself feel better (not guilty) by giving in. my point is only that guilt per se is not a productive emotion unless it is linked to other more complex and more difficult emotions and evaluations of the world/situation.

there are a few absolutes that are generally accepted eg murder (oh, but what about consenting euthanasia...) i don't know why you bring paedophilia into it as its one of the few absolutes that most people would agree on and if you are implying that i take a perspectual view of it then that's a cheap shot, and a misplaced one.

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Originally posted by kevlar:
In my statement I did say that there are a few perspective right and wrongs, for instance pornography. However, the examples you gave I would not view as examples of perspective, as most people would agree that giving kids everything they want is wrong. If we were going on your logic you would say that peadophilia was just down to perspectives, which it is, but I was sure we were not talking in these terms. As every right minded person would say peadophilia is a universal wrong, even though to the perspective of the peadophile it is not.

As to: "nothing is gained by feeling bad about something after the event unless you change your behaviour and the capacity to change your behaviour is embodied not in guilt but in remorse", I would agree, but I would also say guilt is the precursor of remorse.

Whatever it is, thank 'God' it's not religion that's at the heart of determinig what's right or wrong! It's people.

People have perspectives, different ones, and so social attitudes and values decides what's right or wrong.

There are nothing that's absolute.

Even murder is encouraged in, say, Saudi Arabia, where public execusions are still their prefered ways of submitting people under her dictatorship.

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there are a few absolutes that are generally accepted eg murder (oh, but what about consenting euthanasia...) i don't know why you bring paedophilia into it as its one of the few absolutes that most people would agree on and if you are implying that i take a perspectual view of it then that's a cheap shot, and a misplaced one.

I don't know where to start, but felt this had to be answered immediately. I will get to all the other points at a later time.

Mizdemeanour, I have absolutely no idea how you could have even contemplated a sinister or devious intention on my part. I made it clear that even something as hienous as child abuse is seen by some of the perportrators as a legitimate action. This demonstrated that even what we view as universal rights and wrongs will always have exceptions. I am suprised and slightly hurt that you would think that I would play some nasty game with a topic as serious as child abuse. This is certainly not my style.

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Originally posted by Heselbine:

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Originally posted by Have a Word:

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Originally posted by Heselbine:

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Originally posted by Have a Word:
I am sorry about your Dad. I have no answer.

Does it bother you even slightly that you 'have no answer'? Do you not think that if you subscribe to this great religion of yours, then maybe it should have answers for this sort of thing?

That's the problem isn't it - Christianity offers you an answer and then you realise you hadn't asked all the questions...

There is a time and a place....

'Being enigmatic' is no substitute for a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.

Going 'ahhh...' everyone time says something you don't know the answer to doesn't make you look mystical and wise.

Zakkly. But HaW and religious apologists are always more mistical than mystical; as for wisdom, Aesop had it before Jesus was wiping his backside on Mohammed's prose. Or was it the other way around?

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Originally posted by Joobs:

Yes paedophilia is wrong

It was good enough for Mohammed.

And your evidence is?

Guilt is a useless emotion that is not at all positive and consumes time and energy, which goes hand in hand with fear.

It is imposed by social and religious mores, and commonly used to control behaviour. I feel it is healthier to reflect on my actions, take responsibility for them and their results and move on, fixing situations where possible and determining not to repeat those actions that cause myself and others suffering. I prefer to take actions based on doing the 'right thing' rather than guilt or the fear of retribution. I am not on the other hand going to give my self a hard time for past failings, sexual thoughts and not living up to the impossible standards set by the Abrahamic prophets. We are encouraged to emulate them but with the knowledge that we can never be as good as them, our actions will never match their great deeds - we will never be good enough. Some more fuel to throw on the fire of guilt!

I can't find the thread I wanted to reply to.

When your application does go through you are days behind.

You can't blame Religion for a reductionist view you have created. Guilt and Religion are seperate. Would you say if Asda talked about Jesus they had an authority over him?

So you can't say, that since guilt exists in religion (as it does in any cultural or sub cultural phenomenon) that religion is to be blamed for it.

Religion has done more good over millenia than bad. The Religious systems of more adept civilisations than our own created beautiful races and people. Today, it's the corporate and beauraucratic intervention in religion in a capitalist world that confuses us. What I mean is, it's not religion that is the problem, it's where you focus blame based upon your priorities.

Am I Religious? No. Am I Spiritual? No.

Do I believe there is something so powerful in the existence we have it can switch us to do something incomprehendible to miniscule knowledge we call wisdom? Yes.

It would be arrogant of me to think otherwise.

What I find arrogant is anyone who wishes to say something, attacks the first thing that comes in their mind. I find the bible and the quran are far better books than Harry Potter could ever be.

I also feel people are confusing guilt with anxiety here. You can feel guilty but feeling guilty can make you anxious and worried. All seperate entities.

Remourse comes after guilt.

You cannot re-semanticise something to benefit a justification. Focus on the whole and all the elements of the whole.

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Originally posted by Have a Word:
And your evidence is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage
http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/childbrides.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm
http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/bios/b1muhammadca.htm
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm
etc etc

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Originally posted by Dead Fit Samurai:
I also feel people are confusing guilt with anxiety here. You can feel guilty but feeling guilty can make you anxious and worried. All seperate entities.

Remourse comes after guilt.

You cannot re-semanticise something to benefit a justification. Focus on the whole and all the elements of the whole.

Good post.

mmmmhhhh....

I know in the west people used to ger married young to consolidate treaties ect...

There was a gap between marriage and "admittance into the house"

There also seems to be some debate about the exact age of that admittance

even so....


Kevlar... anything you'd care to say about this one?

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Originally posted by Have a Word:
mmmmhhhh....

I know in the west people used to ger married young to consolidate treaties ect...

There was a gap between marriage and "admittance into the house"

There also seems to be some debate about the exact age of that admittance

even so....


Kevlar... anything you'd care to say about this one?

Not really. The evidence is inconclusive. It would seem that marrying, at whateverage the Prophet(PBUH) married Aisha (May God be pleased with her), was not deemed as a deviant act in those days. So it was within the cultural bounds of decency. Puberty was the mark of adulthood. Many people in less developed communities still do not have knowledge of their age. So natural indicators, such as puberty, are seen as benchmarks in peoples lives. I am fully confident that this was adherred to by the Prophet (PBUH).

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Originally posted by kevlar:
Not really. The evidence is inconclusive. It would seem that marrying, at whateverage the Prophet(PBUH) married Aisha (May God be pleased with her), was not deemed as a deviant act in those days. So it was within the cultural bounds of decency. Puberty was the mark of adulthood. Many people in less developed communities still do not have knowledge of their age. So natural indicators, such as puberty, are seen as benchmarks in peoples lives. I am fully confident that this was adherred to by the Prophet (PBUH).

I don't think that the evidence is so inconclusive. However, that said I agree with your point this act must be viewed within the cultural values of the time and place. It serves no purpose (except as dishonest propoganda) to judge such an act in light of our present social morals.

Every society has carried out barbaric practices which the perpetrators of today would be condemned for but in their day their were seen as normal. In examining history it is not for us to judge but merely to record and understand why and how such practices came about or benefitted said society. If one does judge by our standards then we bias the conclusions we will arrive at.

Yes, Mo's act was paedophilic by our standards but that does not make him a paedophile.

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Originally posted by 600cc:

Religions. Gotta get 'em all!!

"Nintendo release follow up to Pokémon. 'Commercial suicide', say experts..."

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Originally posted by 600cc:
...a man (especially a bearded one) having sex with A YOUNG GIRL OF NINE YEARS OLD...

Yeah but across there you do have to get the women young before they grow their 'taches and beards too.

Well done 600cc, true to form. Do you like making enemies?

And Joobs.......forget it!