quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
Challange it then.

I did and you could not think of any way to equate free will with omniscience. After much debate you had to admit that both my and others arguments were valid but in order to cling onto your belief you then invoked some undefined "mechanism" whereby they do equate.

What you are asking now is just absurd and shows you have totally lost the plot. How can I challenge an undefined unknown. If you give me a definition of this supposed "mechanism" then maybe we could debate further. But without that your (undefined) "mechanism" or "Challange" (sic) comments stand as the intellectually bankrupt argument that they just is.

quote:

Originally posted by Joobs:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
Challange it then.

I did and you could not think of any way to equate free will with omniscience. After much debate you had to admit that both my and others arguments were valid but in order to cling onto your belief you then invoked some undefined "mechanism" whereby they do equate.

What you are asking now is just absurd and shows you have totally lost the plot. How can I challenge an undefined unknown. If you give me a definition of this supposed "mechanism" then maybe we could debate further. But without that your (undefined) "mechanism" or "Challange" (sic) comments stand as the intellectually bankrupt argument that they just is.

Utter rubbish. Humans do not know the full implications or workings of time and space, so how do they know that there can not be a mechanism allowing omnipotence and freewill to co-exist.

The model I stated was really simple and you are running away from answering it. If God is all powerful does that not mean he could make a mechanism to allow freewill and omnipresent knowledge to co-exist? A simple yes or no will do. And if your answer is no then that means you are deviating from the model we were discussing and the model that believers believe in.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Utter rubbish. Humans do not know the full implications or workings of time and space, so how do they know that there can not be a mechanism allowing omnipotence and freewill to co-exist.

The model I stated was really simple and you are running away from answering it. If God is all powerful does that not mean he could make a mechanism to allow freewill and omnipresent knowledge to co-exist? A simple yes or no will do. And if your answer is no then that means you are deviating from the model we were discussing and the model that believers believe in.

Much like the God concept itself, it is possible but without proof or some kind of explanation it doesn't warrant further consideration.

Burden of Proof again... if your theory requires an unprovable then it is inherently unsound.

Notice the massive confusion and uproar in Physics when the equations required an unknown in the form of dark matter. Absolute mayhem. Thankfully now, evidence has been found.

If there had continued to be no evidence for dark matter, belief in it would have faded and other avenues would have been explored.

But God, despite absolutely zero evidence in thousands of years of recorded history, refuses to go the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Utter rubbish. Humans do not know the full implications or workings of time and space, so how do they know that there can not be a mechanism allowing omnipotence and freewill to co-exist.

The model I stated was really simple and you are running away from answering it. If God is all powerful does that not mean he could make a mechanism to allow freewill and omnipresent knowledge to co-exist? A simple yes or no will do. And if your answer is no then that means you are deviating from the model we were discussing and the model that believers believe in.

Much like the God concept itself, it is possible but without proof or some kind of explanation it doesn't warrant further consideration.

Burden of Proof again... if your theory requires an unprovable then it is inherently unsound.

Notice the massive confusion and uproar in Physics when the equations required an unknown in the form of dark matter. Absolute mayhem. Thankfully now, evidence has been found.

If there had continued to be no evidence for dark matter, belief in it would have faded and other avenues would have been explored.

But God, despite absolutely zero evidence in thousands of years of recorded history, refuses to go the same way.

Agreed, apart from the last paragraph which I partly agree with.

In this case Joobs was stating that omnipresence could not exist with freewill as it is prescribed in th Abrahamic models. It is clear that it can due to the nature of the omnipresent being, i.e God.

quote:

Originally posted by greenbelt:
Kumquat:Are you forgetting that Paul was also a Jewish rabbi and makes it quite clear in his writings that he did not renounce his religion.He saw Christianity as a fulfilment of Judaism but thought it unnescesarily onerous for gentile believers to have to obey every letter of the Torah. Far from making Christianity acceptable to the Romans he and numerous other Christians were martyred because their religion was unacceptable to the Romans!!!

#

As Saul he was a pretty rabid rabbi by all accounts and that is why they sent him to seek out the christians and I concur he never did renounce his judaism. However, given the number of times that Paul contradicts what Jesus is reported to have said and his very dubious interpretations of the OT then one can say that the Paulian doctrine which is essentially what became the standard christian doctrine is not Jesus' christianity.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
In this case Joobs was stating that omnipresence could not exist with freewill as it is prescribed in th Abrahamic models. It is clear that it can due to the nature of the omnipresent being, i.e God.

It is not clear. That is what you just refuse to see. It is a logical impossibility for omniscience to exist with free will.

Your explanation is mere conjecture. You are merely saying some mechanism could exist which explains and allows it. OK explain this mechanism, until you do your explanation is naught but hot-air. All your undefined mechanism does is create an unresolvable paradox.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

In this case Joobs was stating that omnipresence could not exist with freewill as it is prescribed in th Abrahamic models. It is clear that it can due to the nature of the omnipresent being, i.e God.

Hmmm, methinks you're treading on incredibly unsound ground.

What you're basically saying is that you can assert reasonable grounds for anything because God is all powerful.

For example: It is quite possible that God exists, says everything he says in all religious texts - contradictions et al - but is still infallible despite everything, because he is all powerful and wills it so. But we're all going to hell anyway because that's ultimately what he wants, oh and he wears a pink bunny suit.

You can't prove it's not true.

My point is that once you accept and take on board what you're suggesting, you effectively have to take on board and except every imaginable and unimaginable possibility as truth because God is all powerful and could make it so.

... and the moment your philosophy has this as a requirement you're entering the realm of sheer lunacy.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
The model I stated was really simple and you are running away from answering it. If God is all powerful does that not mean he could make a mechanism to allow freewill and omnipresent knowledge to co-exist? A simple yes or no will do. And if your answer is no then that means you are deviating from the model we were discussing and the model that believers believe in.

What would the answer YES solve, nothing. It is mere conjecture not proof of anything - a "it just is" argument - you are invoking a false premise to prove your case.

Just to humour you I'll play along and say YES. So you have your mechanism, happy now.

However, my simple reply is. Being omnipotent god could have created a mechanism which nullifies the effect of your proposed mechanism. You must concede this could be. YES or NO. If no you are deviating... etc.

See where this is going. Absolutely nowhere.

We can both invoke his omnipotence to create more and more undefined mechanisms to prove our respective arguments.

The only way your mechanism is really valid is if you explain how it would function.

You guys are trying to ignore a corner stone of Islamic doctrine. God is all powerful. If he can not make His omnipresent knowledge coexist with freewill, then he is not all powerful.

That means that you wish me to change a/the cornerstone of my faith to enter into an argument of logic with you. I obviously can't do this. When you give me every single proof on every question about time and space then it would be fair to ask me about this "mechanism". But considering the top scientists know diddle squat about time and space then the question is unfair.

You are the ones that are deviating from logic, either God is all powerful or not. In the Abrahamic religions He is all powerful. Do you contest this?

Time and space would be His creation and the physics of it would also be His creation. He could have decided a totally different format, and it is only our existance within this reality that makes us so inept at thinking outside of this reality. Your calls for me to describe this mechanism are unlogical and you know it.

This all comes down to the creator we are talking about is either all powerful or not. If He is, He can do anything. That is the top and bottom of this debate.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
This all comes down to the creator we are talking about is either all powerful or not. If He is, He can do anything. That is the top and bottom of this debate.

Which means your excuse for this obvious paradox is, as I previously stated, it just is. Fine by me Kev, if that's what you want to believe then by all means do so but I think it is apparant to most people that such is not really an answer but a cop out.

quote:

Originally posted by Joobs:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
This all comes down to the creator we are talking about is either all powerful or not. If He is, He can do anything. That is the top and bottom of this debate.

Which means your excuse for this obvious paradox is, as I previously stated, it just is. Fine by me Kev, if that's what you want to believe then by all means do so but I think it is apparant to most people that such is not really an answer but a cop out.

Like, duh, it's Kevlar we're talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
You guys are trying to ignore a corner stone of Islamic doctrine. God is all powerful. If he can not make His omnipresent knowledge coexist with freewill, then he is not all powerful.

I think that's basically our argument Kevlar.

Unless you can show how (specifically) this is the case, then you have to conceed that it is not and that your God is not all powerful.

quote:

Originally posted by Joobs:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
This all comes down to the creator we are talking about is either all powerful or not. If He is, He can do anything. That is the top and bottom of this debate.

Which means your excuse for this obvious paradox is, as I previously stated, it just is. Fine by me Kev, if that's what you want to believe then by all means do so but I think it is apparant to most people that such is not really an answer but a cop out.

Do you or do you not concede that we were talking about an all powerful being?

And being that He is all powerful, in the model we were talking about, concede that the implication of being all powerful is that He can do anything?

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
You guys are trying to ignore a corner stone of Islamic doctrine. God is all powerful. If he can not make His omnipresent knowledge coexist with freewill, then he is not all powerful.

I think that's basically our argument Kevlar.

Unless you can show how (specifically) this is the case, then you have to conceed that it is not and that your God is not all powerful.

Sorry TM, but the discussion was about an all powerful being with an omnipotent nature.

I understand what you are saying, but that was not the discussion at hand. I would be willing to enter into a debate about whether God is all powerful or not, within the Abrahamic doctrines, but how far do you really think this would get?

I can demonstrate from Christian scriptures that God can not be all powerful, but there is nothing, as far as I am aware, within the Islamic or Judaic scriptures that would indicate this.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Sorry TM, but the discussion was about an all powerful being with an omnipotent nature.

I understand what you are saying, but that was not the discussion at hand.

No, it was exactly the discussion at hand.

When attempting to reconcile free will with an omniscient god you run into a fundamental paradox which (to simplify slightly) is as follows:

1. God is the supreme creator, responsible for all of existance.

2. He is omniscient. He knows everything.

3. He punishes us for our actions, defined as what we do as a direct consequence of being. Which is God's doing according to (1), hence...

3. Sin is only a valid concept if we have the free will to defy his expectation, but this contradicts (2).

No amount of "ah, but you're forgetting the magic" gets you out of this pickle, because the only logical conclusion from that would be that God is somehow cheating us.

If you cannot reconcile free will and omniscience then it puts reasonable doubt over the existance of an omnipotent creator, or at least certainly the one mentioned in scripture.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I would be willing to enter into a debate about whether God is all powerful or not, within the Abrahamic doctrines, but how far do you really think this would get?

Admittedly, not very far.

In fact I'd put good money on a burden of proof issue in the first page. (But I'm not a gambling man...)

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I can demonstrate from Christian scriptures that God can not be all powerful, but there is nothing, as far as I am aware, within the Islamic or Judaic scriptures that would indicate this.

Would those Christian scriptures be OT? Because if they would, then that's Jewish scripture too.

TBH I don't have the depth of knowledge of Qu'ranic text to engage on that particular issue, and nor will I any time soon.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Sorry TM, but the discussion was about an all powerful being with an omnipotent nature.

I understand what you are saying, but that was not the discussion at hand.

No, it was exactly the discussion at hand.

When attempting to reconcile free will with an omniscient god you run into a fundamental paradox which (to simplify slightly) is as follows:

1. God is the supreme creator, responsible for all of existance.

I would correct that and say He is responsible for everything and nothing. In Islamic doctrine He is everything and in the absence of anything he is also responsible for the nothingness. Nothing is also a concept of creation, as it is a reality pertinent to humans, therefore it is a creation of Gods. His existance is unconcievable by humans and without Him not even "nothing" would exist.

2. He is omniscient. He knows everything.

3. He punishes us for our actions, defined as what we do as a direct consequence of being (freewill) . Which is God's doing according to (1), hence...

3. Sin is only a valid concept if we have the free will to defy his expectation, but this contradicts (2).

No, it is contradiction as far as our understanding goes. But this is arrogance. You are limiting God to our view of His own creation. I have asked this question before and no one seems to want to answer it. If God created time and space and all the physics that go with it, would He, Himself, be bound by those laws? And, also, would he not be able to make a mechanism that would allow freewill and omnipresent knowledge coexist, even if this could not be understood by his creation, man?

No amount of "ah, but you're forgetting the magic" gets you out of this pickle, because the only logical conclusion from that would be that God is somehow cheating us.

No, what you are trying to do is tie down the creator of time and space into the understanding of a puny human. Is this realistic?

If you cannot reconcile free will and omniscience then it puts reasonable doubt over the existance of an omnipotent creator, or at least certainly the one mentioned in scripture.

I can and I have. It is a philisophical question and not a physics question and this is the mistake you and Joobs are making.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I would be willing to enter into a debate about whether God is all powerful or not, within the Abrahamic doctrines, but how far do you really think this would get?

Admittedly, not very far.

In fact I'd put good money on a burden of proof issue in the first page. (But I'm not a gambling man...)

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I can demonstrate from Christian scriptures that God can not be all powerful, but there is nothing, as far as I am aware, within the Islamic or Judaic scriptures that would indicate this.

Would those Christian scriptures be OT? Because if they would, then that's Jewish scripture too.

It is the new testament then then invalidates the all powerful nature of God in the old testament, with such things as "the original sin".

TBH I don't have the depth of knowledge of Qu'ranic text to engage on that particular issue, and nor will I any time soon.

Me niether, but hopefully sometime soon.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
No, it is contradiction as far as our understanding goes. But this is arrogance.

The only arrogance I perceive is in your belief that your unprovable faith in a god concept has validity. You cannot prove it so it is arrogant to state that your god is all powerful let alone even exists. You can very well quote some Koranic text etc. which says it is so but that too relies on your belief and faith in the veracity of that text. It really is a circular argument.

Without the arrogance of your own faith in your judgement of the veracity of your chosen creed the whole thing folds like a pyramid of cards subjected to the slightest of draughts.

quote:

I can and I have. It is a philisophical question and not a physics question and this is the mistake you and Joobs are making.

Actually it is a question of logic. But anyway...

Leaving aside and accepting your cop out answer. Can you explain what point there is to our having this free will in your model - it serves no purpose. In your paradox model god in his omniscience already knows what every decision we will make will be. Therefore he is making us run through a life making decisions, suffer and stive, for naught - he knows the final outcome before creation. There really is no point to it all. Free will serves no purpose unless god is not omniscient.

I hope your answer won't be another cop out like; "It is just so because that is the way he has willed it?"

quote:

It is the new testament then then invalidates the all powerful nature of God in the old testament, with such things as "the original sin".

Original sin is a Pauline doctrine only really subscribed to by the RC church. Paul often contradicts what Jesus is reported to have said misinterpreted OT verses and just plain made up rules which were later adopted as christian dogma. However, after the split most of the protestant denominations flung out much Pauline stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:
TBH I don't have the depth of knowledge of Qu'ranic text to engage on that particular issue, and nor will I any time soon.

Same here and I neither have the will nor inclanation to learn about another nonsensical and stupid myth system.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:
He is omniscient. He knows everything.

Your pack of cards argument relies on the inerrancy of the Koran, fine. However, like the christian fundies you really ain't even skating on ice but attempting to walk on water.

So when the Koran tells us that:

babies come from clot

this too must be true, or,

the sun sets in a muddy puddle

or any of the other great science that the Koran mentions. Surely if it contains even one error then its inerrancy is void and all its assertion subject to doubt.

Kevlar: Can God make 1 + 1 = 3?

Bear in mind for a minute that the numbers 1, 2 and 3 are abstract concepts which do not exist in the real world.

If you have 2 carrots, God may well be able to magic one up and have 3... but to my mind there is no way that he can make 2 carrots actually BE 3 carrots.

Do you see my point?

Oh, and in answering this question you may like to reflect a little on the nature of your relationship with your God, and think about Winston Smith in Room 101 with O'Brien asking him how many fingers he's holding up.

(If you haven't read 1984 it's well worth it).

I think we know so little about Jesus. The Bible says little about him.

We know he gave hope to so many people.