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quote: When a person with no faith is brainwashed into believing they have faith, then that person becomes dangerous to the church, a worshipper of a false god called god.
When a believer in god (the children) is brainwashed into believing their faith was wrong or can only be expressed in ways that others approve of, then that person wil be damaged.
I think taking this its logical conclusion, it would appear that what is happeneing within our church is that the true belief is being kicked out of true believers by non believers who have been brainwashed into believing that they do believe. How's that! |
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I use the tern "true belief" in the christain context - someone who's understanding of god comes from god not from false sources.
I'm not trying to say that I believe in Christianity or that I believe it is the only true faith. Only that I can put my head in the place of one who does.
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
it would appear that what is happeneing within our church...
and quote: I'm not trying to say that I believe in Christianity
So what is 'your' church if you don't believe in christianity? btw. Xians do not believe in 'christianity'. Either this is very clumsy wordage or you are just confused. A point rather reinforced by: quote: I'm not trying to say that ... I believe it is the only true faith
In what sense of 'true' could there possibly be one than one, as they are kinda mutually exclusive.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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ParanoidEyes=They were told that that God has wrtten the story for life before they were even conceived and that abortion is preventing these aborted children from fulfilling Gods plans for them. Additionally, it was said that these children had been denied 1/3rd of their friends through foetuses being aborted by the evil people. ------------------------------ Perhaps she should have stated to the children that abortion is basically murder of the unborn. The people carrying out the task are taking part in murdering of the unborn. That way we don't bring Monotheistic ideology into the mix, just facts.  |
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
Every time I make an on topic response it gets deleted.
i can't see why that should be, however, your thinking is a little confusing. it seems to boil down to a 'proper' christians, versus 'improper people pretending/brainwashed into thinking their views are christian', which seems to me a 'no true scotsman' type argument to me. i also have no idea what you mean by a 'true belief' being one that 'comes from god not from false sources'. Do you mean via someone's 'imagination' - in which case how can you distinguish a correct imagining from a false one? and BTW, atheism is not a 'belief'. |
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Clumsy wordage on my part I'm sure. I was arguing from the perspective of a generic Christian.
I've come across Pagan Atheists myself, had one convince me that's pretty much what I'd been for the last thirty years. To me, the whole of life is an act of belief. 80% of our beliefs tend to be pretty much universally accepted (what coffee is, for example), the rest of it we tend to split into factions of faiths covering the spectrum of available options, not believing in any god is just one part of the spirituality spectrum.
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
Clumsy wordage on my part I'm sure. I was arguing from the perspective of a generic Christian.
We can only go by what you write. If you don't believe something yourself and are arguing from another point of view, you really need to make that clear. quote: I've come across Pagan Atheists myself,
There is a point to commonly agreed definition of words. Pagan could mean non-believer in general, in which case the phrase is a tautology. If you are using the word in the sense of a believer in some sort alternative spiritual god, then that is not atheism. quote: had one convince me that's pretty much what I'd been for the last thirty years. To me, the whole of life is an act of belief. 80% of our beliefs tend to be pretty much universally accepted (what coffee is, for example), the rest of it we tend to split into factions of faiths covering the spectrum of available options, not believing in any god is just one part of the spirituality spectrum.
Ho hum. If the spectrum goes from total non-belief to rabid extremist theist, then atheist would sit at one end. I cant see how this is 'part of' the spectrum. If it is not at the end then just what sits further along the spectrum in the opposite direction of theism? Belief in coffee is a semantic red herring.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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quote:
Thanks Venutius, but this page states it is for feedback/questions about TV programmes. You have to specify which programme and which channel your comments are about. I doubt that this applies to comments on forums. There doesnt seem to be anything form to comment on forums. |
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
a generic Christian.
what exactly is one of those? history would indicate there is no such thing. |
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quote: Originally posted by Milan K: quote:
Thanks Venutius, but this page states it is for feedback/questions about TV programmes. You have to specify which programme and which channel your comments are about. I doubt that this applies to comments on forums. There doesnt seem to be anything form to comment on forums.
I think thats the best we are going to get right now, this is an issue that has an impact on programmes, many use the forums to elicit feedback. |
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This is the message at the top of the 'Culture' forum Home page: If you have any problems registering or using this forum please email chat@channel4.com
_____
Roy P
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quote: Originally posted by miz'd: quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
a generic Christian.
what exactly is one of those? history would indicate there is no such thing.
All I am trying to say is that this behaviour is so obviously counter productive that the extremists behind it must have no confidence in the god they claim to trust. This thread is not about my or your beliefs specifically, we differ regarging our understanding of beliefs, I'll bare that in mind, but as far as I am concerned there are no certainties, I see merit in all "beliefs" as I put it, including atheism. Simply put, I recognise the right for each person to hold their own view. Having said that, when those views include encouraging harm in others then I moght try to explain why these actions are self defeating in my view. |
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
All I am trying to say is that this behaviour is so obviously counter productive that the extremists behind it must have no confidence in the god they claim to trust.
It may be obvious to you but I see nothing that suggests it is obvious to the advocates, not that they have no confidence in their god. Quite the reverse. quote: This thread is not about my or your beliefs specifically, we differ regarging our understanding of beliefs, I'll bare that in mind, but as far as I am concerned there are no certainties, I see merit in all "beliefs" as I put it, including atheism.
What is the merit in the belief that the world is flat? quote: Simply put, I recognise the right for each person to hold their own view.
That's big of you.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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quote: Originally posted by free_thinker:
It may be obvious to you but I see nothing that suggests it is obvious to the advocates, not that they have no confidence in their god. Quite the reverse.
It's pretty basic psychology I reckon, paranoia that others may not think the same as them causes them to try to behave in this rather extreme way.
I've seen the aftermath of this kind of thing in Britain and it certainly did not result in the devout "believers" that were intended.
[QUOTE]
What is the merit in the belief that the world is flat?
Do you believe that?
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quote: Originally posted by Roy P:
This is the message at the top of the 'Culture' forum Home page:
If you have any problems registering or using this forum please email chat@channel4.com
That goes straight to the mods that are the point of our complaint. It might be an idea to let them know, then again it just might get us banned, or am I being a touch paranoid? |
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius: quote: Originally posted by free_thinker:
It may be obvious to you but I see nothing that suggests it is obvious to the advocates, nor that they have no confidence in their god. Quite the reverse.
It's pretty basic psychology I reckon, paranoia that others may not think the same as them causes them to try to behave in this rather extreme way.
And you are qualified to make such a diagnosis, are you? quote: I've seen the aftermath of this kind of thing in Britain and it certainly did not result in the devout "believers" that were intended. quote:
What is the merit in the belief that the world is flat?
Do you believe that?
Of course I don't. But you claim there is some merit in any belief.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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quote:
And you are qualified to make such a diagnosis, are you?
I've seen the aftermath of this kind of thing in Britain and it certainly did not result in the devout "believers" that were intended. quote:
Of course I don't. But you claim there is some merit in any belief.
Shame, I'd be very interested in understanding the basis of that belief system. I know that much of the flat earth belief is a myth. Archemedes knew the earth was round and probably so did the egyptians. Flat earth has actually a very recent history and appears to have been created by historians seeking to illustrate how ignorant other races were in the times of empire. But I do know there is a Flat Earth Soc. If I ever met a member I'd be very interested in a chat. |
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius: .. and probably so did the egyptians. quote: Eratosthenes not only knew the earth wasn't flat but calculated its diameter within a few percent of the correct value. So there is no 'probably' to it.
Flat earth has actually a very recent history and appears to have been created by historians seeking to illustrate how ignorant other races were in the times of empire.
I think you will find very many quotes in the bible and quoran that only make sense if read within the frame of reference of a flat earth.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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There's quotes in Greek myth too, but as far as I can see, the ends of the earth in a faith context has a different meaning to the literal.
And even then I really see no point in you picking specific aspects of particular faiths and asking me to justify them or something. I read very little religious text, generally I regard such as potentially dangerous because all they are is someone elses view of god, In my view, if one is to have a relationship with god, it should be without someone elses baggage if at al possible.
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
There's quotes in Greek myth too, but as far as I can see, the ends of the earth in a faith context has a different meaning to the literal.
And even then I really see no point in you picking specific aspects of particular faiths and asking me to justify them or something. I read very little religious text, generally I regard such as potentially dangerous because all they are is someone elses view of god, In my view, if one is to have a relationship with god, it should be without someone elses baggage if at al possible.
I'm not asking you to justify them, I'm just pointing out a couple of old references to flat earth. btw. If you really think you should see the merit in the beliefs of the FES you are gonna have quite a time over there.
Atheism - a non-prophet organisation
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I try not to believe anything that's said to me.
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quote: Originally posted by Venutius:
In my view, if one is to have a relationship with god, it should be without someone elses baggage if at al possible.
so, this seems like a re-working of your earier comment that a 'true' believer is someone who's 'understanding of god comes from god not from false sources' but my question again is, how could that happen? it could only be an internal experience, in which case how could it be distinguished from simply imagination, and how could anyone tell a 'true'imagining from a false one? studies of feral children indicate they have no innate concept of god. so it would seem obvious that god is a social/cultural construct and it is impossible to have an understanding of god outside of socio-cultural 'sources'. |
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My whole understanding of everything is a social construct as is yours, even when it comes to my understanding of the divine.
The term god I find extremely wanting, but I have no other. But yes you are correct, from my perspective the only god we should concern about is the one that is within each of us, not the one someone else might be describing.
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