Originally posted by Venutius: I'm going to confuse you now and I'm sorry about that.
i do not find your views confusing, just rather lacking in any rigour. if you believe in everything and nothing there is little room for you to evaluate your beliefs, and your thinking becomes muddled and contradictory. something you seem to feel should be admired.
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I believe in one god, and I also believe in many gods, and I'm also prepared to accept that ultimately there is no god.
and yet you seem curiously concerned to tell us there is a 'proper' way to 'believe' aka...
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from my perspective the only god we should concern about is the one that is within each of us
although you are unable or unwilling to address the question of how one would distinguish this inner 'god' from hallucination, madness, imagination, etc, and although you accept god is constructed in a social milieu, you also wish to reject (some) constructions as 'false sources' from outside the self.
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I also believe that if good science conflicts with beliefs, then the interpretation of the divine that the belief is based on must be incorrect.
well science certainly does not support the existence of 'angels, higher beings, gods' so perhaps you'll need to reconsider?
Similarly, the only reason why you think this world exists as it does, is because those around you seem to agree. You never did the science, you were told it in such a way that convinced you it was true. For all you know, this entire world could be your hallucination.
Originally posted by Venutius: For all you know, this entire world could be your hallucination.
you're not the first and you won't be the last to offer the 'matrix' argument. great. where exactly does it get us, other than to a place where no-one can say anything about anything. not exactly rich pickings for a debating forum, and it seems to me to be the lazy defence of someone who wants an audience not a discussion.
since you have declined to take up pretty much any of the challenges offered to your 'thinking', i think i'll bow out until someone capable of reciprocity turns up.
I've said that I think that the bevaviour of those folks is effectively child abuse, and that in my opinion such actions betray a lack of faith on the part of the individuals concerned.
Originally posted by Venutius: And why do my views need justifying?
didn't we do this bit already? because its a debating forum?
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I've said that I think that the bevaviour of those folks is effectively child abuse, and that in my opinion such actions betray a lack of faith on the part of the individuals concerned.
you've said a great deal more than that, much of it contradictory, unsubstantiated, and open to question, yet you appear unwilling to engage in any discussion of your ideas.
in fact, i am starting to think you prefer debating yourself than the topic. if only you were to put as much effort into thinking about your on topic posts, we might get somewhere.
until then, you'll excuse me if i excuse myself from any further discussion about you.
I'm sorry if you are angry at me, but it's your anger, your expectations that I don't live up to. Just like everyone else that does not see the world the way you do I suspect.
Do you only believe people that can show other people think the same as them? Personally I think that I'm an individual, not a holder of other peoples thoughts.
Originally posted by Roy P: I had heard about this documentary from other sources, but it did not prepare me for the feelings of rage that welled up inside me as the programme progressed. That there are still people not only willing to 'teach' this stuff but, even more unbelievable, people who are prepared to inflict it on their children!
I must say I'm *really* surprised there aren't more comments about it on this forum. Surely it wasn't because the programme was on so late?
I don't want to start another thread on Religion, so this is as good as any other thread for asking, what might be, a naive question. One for the Christians:
What's god's official take on natural disasters -- in particular, the current earthquake in China?
Originally posted by Venutius: I'm going to confuse you now...
It's not me who is confused
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and I'm sorry about that.
I rather doubt that.
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I believe in one god, and I also believe in many gods, and I'm also prepared to accept that ultimately there is no god.
Yup, and I believe that there is just one black, and everything is also black, even things that appear to be white are black on the inside, but it could be that black is just a type of white.
And I don't see why I should justify, explain or defend these self evident truths.
Originally posted by Roy P: What's god's official take on natural disasters -- in particular, the current earthquake in China?
Far be it for me to answer for theists, but this is theodicy, the most obvious flaw in the theist myth.
To simplify the answers, could theists just choose: A/ That is a very good question that theologists have pondered over for years B/ It is not our place to question the motives of the all knowing god. C/ It was the work of the devil. D/ It will be good for the people in the long run, god moves in mysterious ways E/ Who knows the mind of god.
Originally posted by Roy P: What's god's official take on natural disasters -- in particular, the current earthquake in China?
Far be it for me to answer for theists, but this is theodicy, the most obvious flaw in the theist myth.
To simplify the answers, could theists just choose: A/ That is a very good question that theologists have pondered over for years B/ It is not our place to question the motives of the all knowing god. C/ It was the work of the devil. D/ It will be good for the people in the long run, god moves in mysterious ways E/ Who knows the mind of god.
A single letter will suffice.
You wouldn't believe how inocuous my posted reply was, which just got removed. Anyway, just to be hyper careful, here, can I say that the above list is not necessarily exhaustive, and other possibilities exist.
If God is good and God is all powerful why do bad things happen?
If God is good he surely wouldn’t desire that we suffer, and if God is all powerful surely he would be able to do something about it.
There is no easy answer
Art 309 of the Catechism if the catholic church says “There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the problem of Evil”
Which is kinda saying there’s no easy answer to this one!”
One reason there is no easy answer is that there is more than one question!
Art 310 of the Catechism if the catholic church says
“With physical good there exists also physical evil”
Now it is perhaps a bit strange to use a word like “evil” in this context but it seems clear to me that what the Catechism is referring to by use of the phrase “physical evil” (as opposed to “moral evil”) – or at least one thing that is clearly covered by the term – is natural disasters
Indeed if you read art 310 in its entirety (available online) what you will discover is a theological description of evolution
So – one reason why there is no easy answer to the problem of evil is that there is more than one question. There is both moral evil and physical. There is both Auwschitz and Tsunami
So – what are the possible responses to this great mystery – the mystery of human suffering?
Well for starters I would identify three possible responses
1. Freewill
Freewill is perhaps the most obvious one – and both sides know the importance of it – even to the extent that people will actually try to deny that they are Free – but the equation is a simple one. For God to prevent Auschwitz would be for God to disrespect our freewill. It is a package deal
God chooses not to micromanage us
2. The difference between doing and allowing
God does not do evil but God allows evil that good might come of it.
Underpinning this response is the implicit question “who can know the mind of God”.
Socrates says there are two types of people in the world - the fools who think they are wise and the wise who know they are fools. When we say things like “who can know the mind of God” we are like the wise person who knows he is a fool. IMHO there is no higher application of reason than when we define the limits of our own knowledge – the boundaries of our own competence
3. From the perspective of eternity.
If we could but see things from the perspective of eternity then even something as terrible as Auschwitz – or a Tsunami – might seem like no more than a mere inconvenience
Not a particularly sensitive response that one – but even take a worse case scenario – a grieving Mother. Even in the depths of her despair the one thing she would never say is that she wished her child had never been born
God is not the source of death he is the source of all life
Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known. Blaise Pascal
I just watched Jesus Camp on 4OD and though I'd drop a word in on here, you know, I'm feeling a bit claustophobic stuck in one forum!
I though Have a Word's summation was pretty good. Trying to explain anything like the Chineese earthquake is never going to be anything but trite though. Freewill doesn't ever quite wash with the overall Biblical message, it's there from one perspective, sure, but it's not as free as we think it to be. And wouldn't number 4 from Blast replace those 3 and be number 1?
Replying to miz'd waaaay back on page 2, the only thing that stops my faith being anything but made up is that it all comes from a documented source. We can debate the Bible itself, but at least you can reassured that if you read it you'll never be surprised by a proper Christian!
And the documentary itself... Oh dear!! I can't believe that's a church! What the little girl said about the quiet churches not being proper was heartbreaking!! Christianity is about the mind, it's about knowing the turth, it's aboutthe relationship with Jesus that comes through knowing about Him. Throw away the knowledge and replace it with emotion and you've got an unguided missile, Ted's exploits were sadly expected! (I wonder if he gave anyone $1,000 not to tell his wife...)
And on that point of where belief comes from, where on earth did that guy get the book of Levi's life thing from?!? What a load of tripe! That's not Biblical, therefore it's not Christianity, it's based on it maybe, but it's becoming a cult as it's starting to invent it's own rules.
As someone that does kid's clubs and teaches kids the Bible I was horrified! Well done Channel 4 for continuing to show things accurately and with little agenda on the whole!
Originally posted by AlanC83: As someone that does kid's clubs and teaches kids the Bible I was horrified! Well done Channel 4 for continuing to show things accurately and with little agenda on the whole!
It horrifies me that you are actually teaching kids this rubbish. It's nothing short of child abuse. This forum has plenty of people who have spent years having to run from their religious brainwashing and you're peddling it!
but it's a good way of remembering the word.
