"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heselbine: Anyone other than me find this wildly ironic:
"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."[/QUOTE
This has been the exception to peaceful if rather emotive demonstrations. It has most probably been commited by some E-grade students that flunked out of school, and are too stupid to understand the situation. They are criminals and should be locked up. I think this has been a very isolated case.
Originally posted by Heselbine: Anyone other than me find this wildly ironic:
"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."
This has been the exception to peaceful if rather emotive demonstrations. It has most probably been commited by some E-grade students that flunked out of school, and are too stupid to understand the situation. They are criminals and should be locked up. I think this has been a very isolated case.
Yes, but the reaction of normal (moderate?) Muslims all over the globe has been one of outrage, whn if they'd bothered to read the whole speech they would have understood what the Pope was getting at. Where are the Muslim leaders explaining this? Where is the voice of moderation stopping their 'flock' taking things out of proportion? Its the same with the Mohammed cartoons, its been blown out of all proprtion because, seemingly, very large numbers of Muslims are too stupid or too set in their ways to have anything other than a knee-erk reaction to criticism of their religion.
Originally posted by Heselbine: Anyone other than me find this wildly ironic:
"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."
This has been the exception to peaceful if rather emotive demonstrations. It has most probably been commited by some E-grade students that flunked out of school, and are too stupid to understand the situation. They are criminals and should be locked up. I think this has been a very isolated case.
Yes, but the reaction of normal (moderate?) Muslims all over the globe has been one of outrage, whn if they'd bothered to read the whole speech they would have understood what the Pope was getting at. Where are the Muslim leaders explaining this? Where is the voice of moderation stopping their 'flock' taking things out of proportion? Its the same with the Mohammed cartoons, its been blown out of all proprtion because, seemingly, very large numbers of Muslims are too stupid or too set in their ways to have anything other than a knee-erk reaction to criticism of their religion.
I have to be honest, I have not got a clue about what the Pope said so I have reserved judgement. Has anyone got a link to the whole speech?
These Muslim fundamentalists look for every opportunity to fuel their desire to shed innocent blood. The great irony is how Muslim propaganda in the middle east are quick to ridicule Judaism and we hear no apology from Muslims themselves. Islam are quick to point out the failings of others, maybe it should look within its own religion and put things right, just as with any other religion for that matter.
Its a great pity that these so called 'Muslim leaders of Britain' were not able to comprehend the whole lecture given by the Pope. If they were to understand it on an intellectual basis, then it would have prevented such uprising in the Muslim world.
Originally posted by Heselbine: Anyone other than me find this wildly ironic:
"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."
This has been the exception to peaceful if rather emotive demonstrations. It has most probably been commited by some E-grade students that flunked out of school, and are too stupid to understand the situation. They are criminals and should be locked up. I think this has been a very isolated case.
Yes, but the reaction of normal (moderate?) Muslims all over the globe has been one of outrage, whn if they'd bothered to read the whole speech they would have understood what the Pope was getting at. Where are the Muslim leaders explaining this? Where is the voice of moderation stopping their 'flock' taking things out of proportion? Its the same with the Mohammed cartoons, its been blown out of all proprtion because, seemingly, very large numbers of Muslims are too stupid or too set in their ways to have anything other than a knee-erk reaction to criticism of their religion.
Originally posted by Heselbine: Anyone other than me find this wildly ironic:
"In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches were firebombed on Saturday in attacks claimed by a group which said it was protesting against the Pope's remarks."
This has been the exception to peaceful if rather emotive demonstrations. It has most probably been commited by some E-grade students that flunked out of school, and are too stupid to understand the situation. They are criminals and should be locked up. I think this has been a very isolated case.
Yes, but the reaction of normal (moderate?) Muslims all over the globe has been one of outrage, whn if they'd bothered to read the whole speech they would have understood what the Pope was getting at. Where are the Muslim leaders explaining this? Where is the voice of moderation stopping their 'flock' taking things out of proportion? Its the same with the Mohammed cartoons, its been blown out of all proprtion because, seemingly, very large numbers of Muslims are too stupid or too set in their ways to have anything other than a knee-erk reaction to criticism of their religion.
I have to be honest, I have not got a clue about what the Pope said so I have reserved judgement. Has anyone got a link to the whole speech?
I thought the speech was irrational. the speech began with an assertion about the Islamic faith and was made with no context to the previous dialogue or the answer. Then the Pope goes on to say that the Qu'ran states there is no compulsion in Islam, then implies that this was due to Mohammed(PBUH) situation. He then gives the impression that this doctrine of no compulsion changes once Mohammed(PBUH) is in a more powerful position, when it clearly does not change.
He then goes on to claim that the Christian church was/is the bastion of reason derived from Greek philosophy when this is so untrue as the Christian church would not have had Greek philosophy if it was not for Islam that saved and translated these works from the Christians who wished to burn them.
there are any things that don't seem right to me and for such an educated man it would seem that they have been said deliberately. If he is not aware how his comments have influence then he is a very naive man, and is the wrong man for the Pope.
Lastly I would say the speech did deserve a request for an explaination from Muslim leaders, but I think the demonstrations are over the top. As a Catholic I would ask myself why the Pope is deliberately portraying very biased, if not false, realities?
I thought the speech was irrational. the speech began with an assertion about the Islamic faith and was made with no context to the previous dialogue or the answer. Then the Pope goes on to say that the Qu'ran states there is no compulsion in Islam, then implies that this was due to Mohammed(PBUH) situation. He then gives the impression that this doctrine of no compulsion changes once Mohammed(PBUH) is in a more powerful position, when it clearly does not change.
He then goes on to claim that the Christian church was/is the bastion of reason derived from Greek philosophy when this is so untrue as the Christian church would not have had Greek philosophy if it was not for Islam that saved and translated these works from the Christians who wished to burn them.
there are any things that don't seem right to me and for such an educated man it would seem that they have been said deliberately. If he is not aware how his comments have influence then he is a very naive man, and is the wrong man for the Pope.
Lastly I would say the speech did deserve a request for an explaination from Muslim leaders, but I think the demonstrations are over the top. As a Catholic I would ask myself why the Pope is deliberately portraying very biased, if not false, realities?
Which assertion are you referring to Kevlar? Benedict was quoting some 14th Century pope, they weren't (as he said twice) his words.
Besides, Benedict has indicated that he may shift the Vatican's position towards Islam by asking for more reciprocity. By this, as I understand it, he wants Muslim countries to remove barriers to those who practice other faiths, while we in the West (mostly Christian countries) have no such barriers.
I've been trying to get my head around why the Pope cited this quotation and one of the possibilities that I have come up with is exactly what you suggest Merlin. Namely that he is perhaps being deliberately provocative in an attempt to open up a dialogue with radical Islam on the issue of reciprocity.
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known. Blaise Pascal
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
Originally posted by Have a Word: I've been trying to get my head around why the Pope cited this quotation and one of the possibilities that I have come up with is exactly what you suggest Merlin. Namely that he is perhaps being deliberately provocative in an attempt to open up a dialogue with radical Islam on the issue of reciprocity.
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
So Islam is more acceptable to you than 'secularism'. What particular subtle nuance of Christianity have I missed that makes it more acceptable to be a Muslim than an atheist?
Originally posted by Have a Word: I've been trying to get my head around why the Pope cited this quotation and one of the possibilities that I have come up with is exactly what you suggest Merlin. Namely that he is perhaps being deliberately provocative in an attempt to open up a dialogue with radical Islam on the issue of reciprocity.
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
So Islam is more acceptable to you than 'secularism'. What particular subtle nuance of Christianity have I missed that makes it more acceptable to be a Muslim than an atheist?
Originally posted by merlinthewizard: Sorry, somehow forgot to write my post^^
Which assertion are you referring to Kevlar? Benedict was quoting some 14th Century pope, they weren't (as he said twice) his words.
Because you quote people to make a point, and the only point I could make from this part of his speech was that Islam was into forced conversion.
Besides, Benedict has indicated that he may shift the Vatican's position towards Islam by asking for more reciprocity. By this, as I understand it, he wants Muslim countries to remove barriers to those who practice other faiths, while we in the West (mostly Christian countries) have no such barriers.
Within Islam peoples rights to practice their own religion are protected. The only problem is with apostacy, which I believe should have a safe gaurd of people declaring they are a Muslim when they are of a suitable age. Once declaring this then you should follow the laws of that religion. If you do not declare this then you should be free to practice what religion you want. I do not argue on behalf of Muslim states though, as I think most of them are backward.
Originally posted by Have a Word: at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
Sounds painful. Do you want the number of my chiropractor?
Originally posted by Have a Word: at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
Sounds painful. Do you want the number of my chiropractor?
Originally posted by Have a Word: I've been trying to get my head around why the Pope cited this quotation and one of the possibilities that I have come up with is exactly what you suggest Merlin. Namely that he is perhaps being deliberately provocative in an attempt to open up a dialogue with radical Islam on the issue of reciprocity.
It is very regrettable however to have to have such a convesation at the very time when what is really needed is for all people of faith to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back, facing the common enemy - secularism
So Islam is more acceptable to you than 'secularism'. What particular subtle nuance of Christianity have I missed that makes it more acceptable to be a Muslim than an atheist?
Muslims don't kill children in the womb
Muslims don't foist Western policies re populaiton control on the developing world (cf The Cairo conference)
Muslims don't experiment on human embryo's
Are those subtle enough nuances for you?
If secular western society is so great why are so many people commiting suicide?
The existential vacuum
What was it that Neitzche said - "I looked into the void and the void stared back" (or something like that)
Lovely
That man wasn't a philosopher - he was a prophet
Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known. Blaise Pascal
If secular western society is so great why are so many people commiting suicide?
This has always been a question I never understood. If things are so great then why is everyone so unhappy?
I really believe belief in God keeps me happy. When I am not practicing as I should I get down. I believe we are like machines built to praise God and help our fellow man. When we are not fulfilling our purpose we get sick, spiritualy sick. How do you know when you are sick? You feel pain.
The athiestic/secular world is not all it is cracked up to be. It is about jumping from high to high. Whether that be financial, adoration of others, sexual kicks, drug kicks, adrenaline rushes, food or all the other things we use to fill the emptyness inside.
Within Islam our nuffs(desires) are our enemies. Anyone who learns to control their nuffs will feel the benefit of it. Being able to be happy without worldly things is an accomplishment of the spirit and should be viewed as a higher level of existing, rather than hedonism which is viewed as the prefered choice of of the masses.
Because you quote people to make a point, and the only point I could make from this part of his speech was that Islam was into forced conversion.
Emphasis mine. right, so you understand that this is your inferance, not necessarily the Pope's intended meaning. I can think of many different resons why you might quote this, in this case, it was to highlight past attitudes towards Islamic militancy (by blaming it on Mohammed himself). Benedict then went on to say how Islam is also revealed truth (to a certai extent, in is view ) and that violence contradicts the soul. This, his own words, contradicts the historical quote...so what's your problem, and why are Muslims globally so up in arms without investigating the issue. Its a huge problem. We've had some innocuous cartoons a historical quote, what next, somebody farts within 200m of a mosque and there are riots? (I realise this is a slippery slope, but the precedents are ridiculous enough).
Besides, Benedict has indicated that he may shift the Vatican's position towards Islam by asking for more reciprocity. By this, as I understand it, he wants Muslim countries to remove barriers to those who practice other faiths, while we in the West (mostly Christian countries) have no such barriers.
Within Islam peoples rights to practice their own religion are protected. The only problem is with apostacy, which I believe should have a safe gaurd of people declaring they are a Muslim when they are of a suitable age. Once declaring this then you should follow the laws of that religion So if you grow up with Islam, and then, aged 20 or whatever, you have a not-so-divine revelation that the whole things is b*ollox, you should die? What utter, barbaric rubbish. If you do not declare this then you should be free to practice what religion you want. I do not argue on behalf of Muslim states though, as I think most of them are backward. Well thats the problem, isn't it. As we all know, Islamofascism and Islamic politics generally have very little to do with the religion, but all hide behind the cloak of divine right. This is what needs to be tackled and the Pope is quite right to do so.
