quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Within Islam our nuffs(desires) are our enemies. Anyone who learns to control their nuffs will feel the benefit of it. Being able to be happy without worldly things is an accomplishment of the spirit and should be viewed as a higher level of existing, rather than hedonism which is viewed as the prefered choice of of the masses.

Are you asserting that God was incorrect to design you have to have these "nuffs" as you call them?

Why else would you consciously ignore the internal messages that Allah has programmed you with?

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

Muslims don't kill children in the womb

No, they usually wait till they can get them in the cross-hairs. Or can make them slaves. And Mohammed liked to marry them!

quote:

Muslims don't foist Western policies re populaiton control on the developing world (cf The Cairo conference)

No, they foist Muslim policies on us instead.

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Muslims don't experiment on human embryo's

Indeed they *are* centuries behind in scientific expertise now. Except bomb-making, they know how to do that.

quote:

If secular western society is so great why are so many people commiting suicide?

Because they're not Muslim? Jeez, who'd have thought that a Catholic would advocate another religion over non-belief. "Believe any old sh1t as long as it stops you killing yourself".

quote:

The existential vacuum

's funny, I never noticed it myself. In fact my reverence of life, liberty, science, gadgets, love, sex and rock'n'roll make my life very very deep and full. You can argue all you like about secular emptiness: I'm a counterexample, you're lying, your argument is false.

My 2p, for what it's worth...

The Pope quoted (i.e. read the words of another) a historic figure who accused Islam of being a violent faith.

This has enraged the Muslims around the world to such an extent, they decided to show us all how unfounded this accusation is by rioting in the streets and burning effagies of the Pope.

Well done guys, way to get your point across.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:
My 2p, for what it's worth...

The Pope quoted (i.e. read the words of another) a historic figure who accused Islam of being a violent faith.

This has enraged the Muslims around the world to such an extent, they decided to show us all how unfounded this accusation is by rioting in the streets and burning effagies of the Pope.

Well done guys, way to get your point across.

Don't forget the non-violent peace-loving Muslims shot a nun!

Quite.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I really believe belief in God keeps me happy. When I am not practicing as I should I get down. I believe we are like machines built to praise God and help our fellow man. When we are not fulfilling our purpose we get sick, spiritualy sick. How do you know when you are sick? You feel pain.

The athiestic/secular world is not all it is cracked up to be. It is about jumping from high to high. Whether that be financial, adoration of others, sexual kicks, drug kicks, adrenaline rushes, food or all the other things we use to fill the emptyness inside.

You are quite right Kev, if we just sit around and do nothing we experience a peculiar emptiness. I don't know what you call it, but it's just the feeling that all is not quite right.

For my part, I fill my life with rewarding interpersonal relationships with my family, my friends and my partner. I am lucky enough to have a rewarding job that I enjoy. I spend my free time writing music . All of which makes me very happy.

You achieve the same effect by a dedicated belief in something you have no proof for, and there is nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy.

The only difference is that I know that what I am experiencing is real.

If there is one thing I know not to be real it is this.

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

Within Islam our nuffs(desires) are our enemies. Anyone who learns to control their nuffs will feel the benefit of it. Being able to be happy without worldly things is an accomplishment of the spirit and should be viewed as a higher level of existing, rather than hedonism which is viewed as the prefered choice of of the masses.

Are you asserting that God was incorrect to design you have to have these "nuffs" as you call them?

Why else would you consciously ignore the internal messages that Allah has programmed you with?

I view it as all part of the test. No one can deny that self restraint is a good thing, regardless of your beliefs.

quote:

Originally posted by InAbsentia:

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:
My 2p, for what it's worth...

The Pope quoted (i.e. read the words of another) a historic figure who accused Islam of being a violent faith.

This has enraged the Muslims around the world to such an extent, they decided to show us all how unfounded this accusation is by rioting in the streets and burning effagies of the Pope.

Well done guys, way to get your point across.

Don't forget the non-violent peace-loving Muslims shot a nun!

See how the actions of one man and the ones that burnt the churches in West Bank have caused all Muslims to be tarnished. If the criminals that did this are reading this, I hope you are happy!

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

If there is one thing I know not to be real it is this.

... what?

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

I view it as all part of the test. No one can deny that self restraint is a good thing, regardless of your beliefs.

Evidently so...

But you're suggesting that God gave you these impulses for you to ignore, rather than to follow?

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

See how the actions of one man and the ones that burnt the churches in West Bank have caused all Muslims to be tarnished. If the criminals that did this are reading this, I hope you are happy!

Time, Kevlar, for all peace loving moderate Muslims to stand up and oppose these people who are going too far... rather than quietly condemning the Pope for quoting someone.

quote:

For my part, I fill my life with rewarding interpersonal relationships with my family, my friends and my partner.

I also think that these things are the halal way of being happy. Your relationship with others is paramount and is a road to happiness, I'm glad you also see it that way.

As for the Job and Djing and ultimately family and friends, there is story concerning this.

A king sent one of his scholars to the land of the Muslims to find out what it was about. After studying with the Muslims for two years, the scholar set off back to his region with all the books concerning Islam.

On the way he was stopped by robbers. He pleaded with the robbers to take everything but his books, his source of knowledge. The robber said to him, "what sort of knowledge is it that a man like me can take it away"?

The scholar thought about what the robber was saying and then told him to take his books.

The scholar went back to the Muslim country and studied for another two years and commited everything to memory.


This is meant to be a analogy for worldly things. We should not rely totally on anything that can be taken away. Faith has shown over the years to be the rock that people in utter desperation and tribulations can rely on. When you have lost your job, your house, all your money and your wife faith in God can still keep you strong.

I wear my taksbi (sorry don't know how to spell it in English, like Catholic roseary beads) around my neck. The Sufis say that a person who wears the taksbi around his neck will never aquire wealth. I hope that I don't. I believe that it can make me too worldly and forget the spiritual world.

TM, when you mentioned Djing, one of the main reasons I gave it up was because, even though I was a very conscious DJ, I still got off on being the DJ. I liked that it was me in control of all those people. I liked being the centre of attention. I liked the adoration. I liked the ego boost and suffered from false modesty. I tried to be totally humble and outwardly I was, but inside I felt great pride from something as stupid as playing records.

I try and look at everything now and see what my intentions are, including my intentions when posting on here. Which often fall into self promoting exercises, rather than honest dialogue and searching for understanding and the truth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merlinthewizard:
[QUOTE] Muslims don't kill children in the womb

Emotive, but abortion is another thread. Its merely your opinion that abortion is murder, btw
It was an answer to a question on this thread (why Islam over secularism). In other words - although the question of abortion should perhaps be another thread - the fact that it is something that catholics and Muslims object to whilst at the same time is something that the secular west condones - is relevant to this thread. Keep with the program

But whilst we're on the subject - if you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and cause a miscarriage you get locked up for Murder, btw

Are you denying that population control is needed? what about Muslim men in sub-Saharan africa (and I speak having met people like this) who say "I'm really poor, I can barely feed myself, and now my 6th child needs feeding too." Islam says to breed like rabbits to spread Islam (if you read between the lines). This is completely counter-productive.

Africa is not overpopulated it is underpopulated. If people are hungry it is not because there are too many people - if anything it is because there are not enough people to implement the labour intensive farming techniques required to work the land... or drought or wars - lots of reasons actually

Large families are natural for a developing country. Nothing got to do with Islam. With increased development, cost of bringing up children increases, women have a career start families later... family sizes naturally become smaller. To say that your argument is 2 dimensional..... C4 program "The Myht of too Many" was brilliant on all of this. If they ever reshow it - tape it! Failing that - pop along to the University library and look up "Frank Furedi". He is good on this. As far as I can make out he has no religious convictions - but he argues strongly that Africa is underpoulated

Muslims don't experiment on human embryo's

Again this is another thread, but I think such experiments, if they lead to cures for cancer, parkinson's disease etc etc are worth it every time.
Everyone knows that adult stem cells have great potential for therapeutic purposes - nature has designed them for the purpose. What is at issue is embryonic stem cell research - which up to date has had absolutely no useful applications

quote:

Originally posted by ©TM:

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

See how the actions of one man and the ones that burnt the churches in West Bank have caused all Muslims to be tarnished. If the criminals that did this are reading this, I hope you are happy!

Time, Kevlar, for all peace loving moderate Muslims to stand up and oppose these people who are going too far... rather than quietly condemning the Pope for quoting someone.

Yes, you are right. Before I used to think these people have nothing to do with me, why should I have to say anything. But now, it is impacting my life.

These terrorists are not like the Israel situation, where there is confusion as to who is the aggressor. Everyone knows terrorists are bad. There has been more Muslim victims of terrorism than non-Muslims. Muslims take the same tubes and buses as everyone else. Yet not only are Muslims afraid of terrorists like everyone else, but also they are targetted by non-Muslims as if they have a part to play in stopping terrorists. We all have a part to play, but what is it?

When Muslims demonstrate about the cartoons, the Pope and Israel/Iraq they are trying to express a view that is known to them but not to others. In the case of terrorism everyone is in agreement that terrorism is bad. What else can Muslims do?

Our Mosque is so frightened of extremism they won't allow posters up for legal demonstrations such as stop the war. They are tackling extremism and just because it is happening within communities non-muslims are complaining because it is not visible to them.

I do believe I have a larger role to play having said all that. As a convert, I have a unique view on the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. I do challange stupid ideas from Muslims, when I come across them; but I have to say it is not that often. I am currently trying to organize the convert Muslims of my city into some kind of organization, which can tackle the cutural problems of multi-culturalism that many Muslims have mixed up with their faith. You will find many of the percieved problems are to do with culture and not religion.

Its not much, but we are trying and we have not had any guidance from government on what to do. They spend all there time talking to MCB, but as every Muslim knows they do not represent anybody so nothing gets filtered down to the grass roots.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

This is meant to be a analogy for worldly things. We should not rely totally on anything that can be taken away. Faith has shown over the years to be the rock that people in utter desperation and tribulations can rely on. When you have lost your job, your house, all your money and your wife faith in God can still keep you strong.

This is true of anything that is in your head.

In my head is the knowledge that I am a good person and I have lived my life as well as I could, which is more than enough for me without introducing intangibles to add worth.

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

TM, when you mentioned Djing, one of the main reasons I gave it up was because, even though I was a very conscious DJ, I still got off on being the DJ. I liked that it was me in control of all those people. I liked being the centre of attention. I liked the adoration. I liked the ego boost and suffered from false modesty. I tried to be totally humble and outwardly I was, but inside I felt great pride from something as stupid as playing records.

I just love the music at the end of the day.

Nothing more than that.

THere seems to be more condemnation of the Pope's reading another man's words.

All over the news.

Why is the anti-African racism of the Sudanese government and militia not damned by all those Muslim Organisations?

quote:

Originally posted by InAbsentia:
That's funny, I never noticed it myself. In fact my reverence of life, liberty, science, gadgets, love, sex and rock'n'roll make my life very very deep and full. You can argue all you like about secular emptiness: I'm a counterexample, you're lying, your argument is false.

You're younger than I thought. You obviously haven't had your mid life crisis yet!

quote:

Originally posted by kevlar:

See how the actions of one man and the ones that burnt the churches in West Bank have caused all Muslims to be tarnished. If the criminals that did this are reading this, I hope you are happy!

Happy? That's not exactly what I'm feeling. More like your emoticon.

You start to see the problem though: if it were an isolated incident I would be quite wrong to judge many on the actions of one. But it isn't. It's lots. It's many instances of Islamic atrocity and backward "thinking", spanning the globe and many decades.

Unlike you, I do not distinguish "real" Muslims and "non-real" ones. They are all Muslim to me, and for all your arguing you know there is a fallacy lurking at the bottom of that. If they read and believe the Qu'ran, go to Mosques, pray to Allah and revere Mohammed they are Muslim.

It's like a person with multiple personality disorder claiming that the murders they commit are nothing to do with them because it's another part of them that does it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't lock the guy away for the safety of everyone else, in fact it absolutely necessitates it.

quote:

Originally posted by Have a Word:

You're younger than I thought. You obviously haven't had your mid life crisis yet!

LOL! I'm 41, I have 2 kids, I drive a TVR, I play in a rock band and my screensaver has 1000s of pictures of girls in bikinis. If that ain't a classic mid-life-crisis I dunno what is!

I just decided to enjoy my MLC. No point in getting all miserable about it.

quote:

Why is the anti-African racism of the Sudanese government and militia not damned by all those Muslim Organisations?

They have been, did you not see the demonstration on Sunday?

Is this like the new anti-Islamic strawman argument? Every Zionist or opponent of Islam seems to be coming out with this one. I agree that Islamic voices should have been louder earlier, but they were pre-occupied.

If I am having an argument with my sister and then someone comes along and starts arguing with my sister then I will argue against that person instead. Due to the Darfur crisis being seen as an "in" problem it was not concentrated on like it should have been.

quote:

I'm a counterexample, you're lying , your argument is false.

Here we go again, the wonderful example of secular athieism that is InAbsentia!

Well, I must say, I have got a lot to learn from you.

quote:

Unlike you, I do not distinguish "real" Muslims and "non-real" ones. They are all Muslim to me, and for all your arguing you know there is a fallacy lurking at the bottom of that. If they read and believe the Qu'ran, go to Mosques, pray to Allah and revere Mohammed they are Muslim.

Proove that I have ever stated a Muslim that commits crimes is not a Muslim, or retract your unfounded accusation!