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quote: And just something to think about, has ANYONE ever allowed or thought it was necessary to examine any other holy book, ie. the bible (with all the different versions) or the Torah in detail ie. to criticise.
The quran is perfect, unchanged and from Allah as the day he revealed it. It should be the last book on any such list of warranting examination to criticise.
Surely. it is just this blind faith, not fact, that helps cause questions to be raised as to the servility and slavishness of Muslims to their faith and therefore the perceived dislike they have for the rest of us...the infidel, The programme tonight set out to sympathise with the Muslim's so called plight in the UK, but simply served to create greater divides. |
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C4 Commissioner
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Peter Oborne is logging on as we type. He will be here shortly.
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There are two issues here: radical 'Jihadist' Islam - which fuels terrorism. They are a tiny minority.
There's also a worrying culture shared by many - but by no means all - Muslims in this country in their communities. The specific culture I speak of has far less respect for tolerance, far less respect for our value of the freedom of speech, far less respect for racial equality, far less respect for gender equality, far less respect for sexual-orientation equality. This makes the culture I speak of fundamentally at odds with the superior culture and values we call 'British'. It is a serious concern that the number of people who follow that un-British culture is rising.
Any Muslims who think of themselves as British/English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish and share our liberal values are very much welcome in this country. They're as British as anyone and no doubt already contribute greatly. It would be nice to hear even louder condemnation from moderates of the more ultra-conservative Muslims.
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Further, many Muslim women retreat behind the veil. Not exactly extending the hand of friendship is it?
To comment on your view that many Muslim women "retrate behind the veil". When was the last time you tried to talk to a Muslim woman who wore a hijab or a full face veil?
We do not retreat behind the veil, we present ourselves to the world the way God has commanded us to to allow us to go out in society with people respecting us and demanding that people (i mean men & women btw) pay attention to our personality and what we say and what we have to offer.
We humble our appearance so that society can not use it to exploite us as women are exploited on a daily basis and in every aspect of society these days. We are taking our natural rights back to be women and to be respected for our personal qualities.
I find it really disturbing when I hear smart, educated fellow Britons just repeating what dumb things they pick up from the front page of the Sun newspaper or on page 6, after they have gone past page 3 then say that muslim woman who covers up is oppressed. what bout our fellow women on page 3? is she liberated because she has no clothes? think!
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C4 Commissioner
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quote: Originally posted by djh1697:
If 3% of the UK population is Muslim, why is 9% of the prison population a Muslim? Three times more likely to be in jail if you are a Muslim?
Isn't that support for our thesis about discrimination and Islamophobia? Black people are also overrepresented in prison - does that mean all black people are criminals in your view? Wouldn't that be considered a racist view? Just wondering... |
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Peter (hope you don't mind the informality) I watched with the programme with great interest. I teach young scottish students the subject of equality and diversity as part of the citizenship agenda. As part of the course we examine the effect of the media in the development of prejudice. I have to confirm that many of my students have strongly held anti-islamic prejudices, often more strongly expressed than the sectarian bigotry that mars many local communities in the area. I believe that many feel that it is acceptable to be anti-islamist in our society and your experiment with the headlines certainly confirmed my view.
I agree that much of prejudice is being encouraged by inappropriate linking of the practice of a religion and violent and subversive behaviour of a few. The insidious dripping of negative representations is encouraging intolerance and falsely based prejudice.
By the way, I am married to a muslim, and though I am an atheist, I have never found this to be a problem with either my husband's family or our muslim friends.
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C4 Commissioner
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quote: Originally posted by RDeol:
Mehdi H, when you live in Bradford your everyday existence is dictated by muslims. I work with professionals who are sadly muslims first and professionals second.
You're quite right to highlight identity issues in modern, multicultural Britain. But what does it mean to be a Muslim first and a professional second? I think lots of Christians and Jews would define themselves by their religion first and then by their job (bus driver, teacher, doctor, etc). Wouldn't they? Again, why single out the Muslims? |
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quote: Originally posted by Mehdi H: quote: Originally posted by M1dge:
I found the format of the documentary insulting. I, as many other people that I speak to are not really too bothered about terrorism, we have had large numbers of muslims in this country since the 2nd world war and there has been one Islamic 'terrorist attack'. I am under no illusion that 'all muslims are terrorists' which this documentary tried to put across as the opinion of the white population in England.
The problem I have, which once again is shared by many people I speak to is the Islamification (if thats even a word) of the UK. I dont want to see mosques as I travel to work. I dont want to eat halal meat, not because it tastes any different, it doesnt, I just dont feel that in England I should be sold. I dont want people at work to whinge about not being able to pray at god knows how many times in the day as the pre set break pattern doesnt allow it.
I have no problem with anyone in this country as long as they come to live in the UK, not try and convert it into something which resembles as rainy, grassy pakistan.
Do you really think Britain is being Islamified when only 3 percent of the UK population is Muslim? Does the selling of halal meat really affect your life?
--------------------------------------- yes 3% may be a fact, but i would be interested to know where these 3&% are located. that is 3% of the whole of britain, most of the muslims are located i would guess in areas such as london, bradford, leicester. i recently went to bradford to watch a football match, outside the ground i was shocked, it was another country! whilst in lieester i read that it is going to be the first city where there are more non-white british(ethnics) that british. this is 100% wrong it actually makes me sick this should not be the case. there may only be 3% but most of these will be located in southern cities, in these areas there is an element of islamification |
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quote: Originally posted by Geeza..:
if you ask the average muslim about deobandi they wouldnt know what youre talking about. you see most of these people and groups arent even on the radar until the media announce that such groups might exist. there is a claim that there are radical clerics preaching evil all over this country, yet if this was true where are the convictions, apart from the usual suspects who now have been charged for offences around terrorism (less than a handful) where are they all? |
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C4 Commissioner
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quote: Originally posted by Dornu Blythin:
Further, many Muslim women retreat behind the veil. Not exactly extending the hand of friendship is it?
To comment on your view that many Muslim women "retrate behind the veil". When was the last time you tried to talk to a Muslim woman who wore a hijab or a full face veil?
We do not retreat behind the veil, we present ourselves to the world the way God has commanded us to to allow us to go out in society with people respecting us and demanding that people (i mean men & women btw) pay attention to our personality and what we say and what we have to offer.
We humble our appearance so that society can not use it to exploite us as women are exploited on a daily basis and in every aspect of society these days. We are taking our natural rights back to be women and to be respected for our personal qualities.
I find it really disturbing when I hear smart, educated fellow Britons just repeating what dumb things they pick up from the front page of the Sun newspaper or on page 6, after they have gone past page 3 then say that muslim woman who covers up is oppressed. what bout our fellow women on page 3? is she liberated because she has no clothes? think!
As our programme pointed out, barely 1 per cent of Muslim women in this country wear the veil. So why the obsession with it? |
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First, well done for a fabulous documentary.
I lived in the UAE for a wonderful 10 years of my young life where I grew up to respect the muslim community and their culture. I would never condone racist homophobia as some others would, especially given my past experiences of this culture and community.
However, I do feel that the muslim community do not help themselves much on this issue. There has been very little public condemnation of terrorist issues that are so very tied to the muslim community. I am sure there are many who would protest to this and say that they do condemn such issues - the problem is that the majority of the UK population do not see such condemnation, so that it appears as if the lack of such is almost accepting of such terrible acts. I know this can not be the case, but do wish that the muslim community would more publicly renounced such acts so that the true solution to this desperate problem can be solved within the muslim community themselves. This would be true, inner healing, would it not?
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I have to admit as a proud british man who happens to be muslim too. I get along fine with pretty much everyone I've met within the UK.
But after seeing your programme, I'm really upset, I'm upset by the many posts listed here in this group - so much hatred and so much ignorance that I had no idea existed.
Excellent piece of journalism and Cardiff is one of the best journalism schools in the country as most journalists will know. What I found the most upsetting is hearing that men refer to us as cockroaches, I felt like crying there and then. I've never ever heard a muslim refer to any community like that.
But I'm educated, mature and sensible enough to know that comments like his are bred from ignorance and should not be taken to reflect the views of every single white man in the UK and I would never ever be stupid enough to tarnish everyone with the same brush.
I hope that the very extreme comments on this website against muslims are part of some radical minority bred through ignorance too, that epople realise that most muslims are nice, peaceful individuals. What I find frustrating is having to justify my very existence and having to defend myself against people I despise myself ie cold blooded murderers.
Cold blooded murderers exist in every aspect of our society, whether white, black, asian, sikh, muslim, hindu, christian, jewish or atheist.
Peter Oborne is holding a mirror up to the media and asking them if they have any idea what effect their irresponsible reporting is having on society? The IRA are not referred to as Christian terrorists in the media - how would people feel if they were?
Is I were to use a Star Wars analogy, Islam is like the force - most us are law abiding peaceful beings more in tune with the Jedi but unfortunately there are some people who like the dark side ie the Sith. It doesn't mean we should ban the Force and tarnish everyone who follows the Force as evil beings, only the dark side deserves such contempt and like the Jedi, we hate cold blooded murderers as much as everyone else - we hate them because of what they have done but also for giving our faith a bad name and polluting and tarnishing the very good image of our faith and giving the oxygen of negative publicity to far right groups like the BNP.
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quote: Originally posted by djh1697:
If 3% of the UK population is Muslim, why is 9% of the prison population a Muslim? Three times more likely to be in jail if you are a Muslim?
because the law isnt color/religion blind. the judiciary and the cps admit that they are institutionally prejudiced. also if the focus and efforts are aimed at muslims it is not a surprise that more muslims will be criminalised. in this country over 1 in 3 of the non muslim population are criminalised. how do you explain this? |
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quote: Originally posted by Little Tyke:
I blame the gutter press (tabloids) for pandering to fear and fear-mongering and for hyping up the negativity towards Muslims. It's as if the likes of the Sun, the Daily Express and other papers have an agenda - namely, to drive out Muslims from Britain. I am not a Muslim. I am white English and nominally Christian, though I now consider myself to be an atheist. I lived for years in West Germany in the 1970s, which made me want to find out more about the Nazi period and how the Jews were maltreated. The newspapers then also played a significant role in spreading hate. One might even put a fair chunk of the blame for the Holocaust at the editors' doors, since they spewed the oxygen on which the hatred thrived. The Jews turned the other cheek. I think Muslims today need to confront this hatred, not hide away and wait for someone else to change things, else it will just get worse and worse.
I have to agree with you. However it is not British Journalism that is at fault per se. Yes there are far right elements but the main issue here is the Zionist media. The Sun is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the Daily Express owned by Richard Desmond etc. Can anyone show me an article from any of the mentioned tabloids which is critical of Israel? I think there is a serious agenda here and if we dont watch it, good ol' British journalism will be just that, a long gone reality. |
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C4 Commissioner
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Actually DJH1697, Islam is derived from the root Arabic word 'salam' which means peace.
As for your bulldozer point, why does that reflect on all Muslims? If an Israeli kills a Palestinian child, does that reflect on all Jews? When an American soldier tortures Iraqis in Abu Ghraib, does that reflect on all Christians? And so on and so on. Again, why the singling out of Muslims? Why? Can anyone on this forum answer that please?
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quote: Originally posted by Geeza..: quote: Originally posted by Peter O.:
Hello - I'm Peter Oborne and I'll be online from 9.00pm
Hello Peter, I note there were a couple of stories you did not address in your programme and they are as follows: Hardline takeover of British mosquesSeptember 7, 2007 Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.
Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times. Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’Dated: September 8, 2007 One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking. Peter, why did you not cover these stories in your programme and don't you think such stories add to the apprehension British people have towards what 'version' of Islam our Muslim population are being 'taught'?
If Mehdi H or Peter Osborne could answer me I would be most grateful. |
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pete,,,,have you read any of the koran,
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
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quote: Originally posted by Monshu:
I have to admit as a proud british man who happens to be muslim too. I get along fine with pretty much everyone I've met within the UK.
But after seeing your programme, I'm really upset, I'm upset by the many posts listed here in this group - so much hatred and so much ignorance that I had no idea existed.
Excellent piece of journalism and Cardiff is one of the best journalism schools in the country as most journalists will know. What I found the most upsetting is hearing that men refer to us as cockroaches, I felt like crying there and then. I've never ever heard a muslim refer to any community like that.
But I'm educated, mature and sensible enough to know that comments like his are bred from ignorance and should not be taken to reflect the views of every single white man in the UK and I would never ever be stupid enough to tarnish everyone with the same brush.
I hope that the very extreme comments on this website against muslims are part of some radical minority bred through ignorance too, that epople realise that most muslims are nice, peaceful individuals. What I find frustrating is having to justify my very existence and having to defend myself against people I despise myself ie cold blooded murderers.
Cold blooded murderers exist in every aspect of our society, whether white, black, asian, sikh, muslim, hindu, christian, jewish or atheist.
Peter Oborne is holding a mirror up to the media and asking them if they have any idea what effect their irresponsible reporting is having on society? The IRA are not referred to as Christian terrorists in the media - how would people feel if they were?
Is I were to use a Star Wars analogy, Islam is like the force - most us are law abiding peaceful beings more in tune with the Jedi but unfortunately there are some people who like the dark side ie the Sith. It doesn't mean we should ban the Force and tarnish everyone who follows the Force as evil beings, only the dark side deserves such contempt and like the Jedi, we hate cold blooded murderers as much as everyone else - we hate them because of what they have done but also for giving our faith a bad name and polluting and tarnishing the very good image of our faith and giving the oxygen of negative publicity to far right groups like the BNP.
Thanks for your heartfelt posting. If it makes you feel any better, the man with the cockroach analogy was a BNP supporter and not reflective of wider British public opinion. But the language of cockroaches is indeed dehumanising and is the language of ethnic cleansing, as Peter pointd out in the film. Very worrying... Loved your Star Wars analogy btw! |
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Dispatches Reporter
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here I am - ready to answer all questions. Sorry there was a rechnical hitch at my end.
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New Member
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Bigamy is illegal in the UK except if you are Muslim. Muslims marry below the age of consent often to cousins or uncles.
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C4 Commissioner
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quote: Originally posted by georgewhyte:
pete,,,,have you read any of the koran,
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
George - the real question is: HAVE YOU READ THE QURAN? All your quotes from the Quran are selective and truncated. For example, the verses from Chapter 9 that you use are preceded by the words 'Permission is given to fight against those WHO FIGHT AGAINST YOU' - those warfare verses are in the context of a defensive war. I find it amusing that only opponents of Islam and violent Muslim extremists both interpret the Quran in such a selective and militant manner. |
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C4 Commissioner
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quote: Originally posted by count zero:
Bigamy is illegal in the UK except if you are Muslim. Muslims marry below the age of consent often to cousins or uncles.
Actually bigamy is illegal for Muslims too. |
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quote: Originally posted by mikeonline:
The Qur'an condemns all non-Muslims - Christians and Jews as well as those who worship many gods and no gods.
On what basis do you make this statement? This quote is taken directly from the Koran, Translated from the Arabic by J.M Rodwell Sura 9 1 - Immunity Mendina - 130 Verses Verse 5 And when the sacred months (3) are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Graciouse, Merciful. It very conclusive within the Koran, would you not agree. |
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quote: Originally posted by Mehdi H: quote: Originally posted by M1dge:
I found the format of the documentary insulting. I, as many other people that I speak to are not really too bothered about terrorism, we have had large numbers of muslims in this country since the 2nd world war and there has been one Islamic 'terrorist attack'. I am under no illusion that 'all muslims are terrorists' which this documentary tried to put across as the opinion of the white population in England.
The problem I have, which once again is shared by many people I speak to is the Islamification (if thats even a word) of the UK. I dont want to see mosques as I travel to work. I dont want to eat halal meat, not because it tastes any different, it doesnt, I just dont feel that in England I should be sold. I dont want people at work to whinge about not being able to pray at god knows how many times in the day as the pre set break pattern doesnt allow it.
I have no problem with anyone in this country as long as they come to live in the UK, not try and convert it into something which resembles as rainy, grassy pakistan.
Do you really think Britain is being Islamified when only 3 percent of the UK population is Muslim? Does the selling of halal meat really affect your life?
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