Muhammad was not married to Aiesha when she was 6, she didn't even move in with him till was in her teens (If you believe her, and most Shia don't, believing that she lied about her age so as to prove that she was divinely chosen when very young, and thus that she was correct in her battles against Imam Ali, the most important figure in Shia Islam)

quote:

Originally posted by wendymann:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:

quote:

Originally posted by jezzasexiles:

quote:

Originally posted by qatil:



Which march ? if you mean the one in London 18 years ago, i was there , ''The march was not organise for Rushdies head it was in protest to the offensive content in the book,

But then calling a Prophets wife a ''prostitute' may not be offensive for a lot of people , and that is only a matter of diffrent values in diffrent societies.....



And now you may think Rushdie now know every thing about Islam and its book and its FLAWS


bless you

Give up - I lived in Bradford at the time and those Mohammedists were calling for Rushdie to be killed - as for calling Mohammed anything - woopie doo!

Well said. Muslims are simply in denial. This is what I meant when I explained to wendymann that if you want Islamophobia to be eliminated, then stop such outrageous demands of execution for those that insult Islam, stop blowing up other people's religious symbols and stop extreme Mullahs calling for the execution of apostates of Islam. Unfortunately, wendymann simply called me a bigot, adding fuel to Islamophobia - he / she / it is too stupid to recognise this.

and manybe if we want to be hated less we should stop stealing other peoples resources, supporting despotic regimes, oppressing ordinary people and getting into illegal wars where we sodomise fathers in front of their wives and children (abu ghraib - baghram) and lock away innocent taxi drivers for 5 years in guantanomo.

maybe if we didnt use napalm derivatives, blowing up weddings and thousands upon thousands of cluster bombs not to mention sending in the missionaries with a million bibles we'd get more respect.

but with some people the wind only blows in one direction and cant see their intolerance and wicked evil ways. even after their government and media have lied to them time aftr time after time.

and yet you would not claim any of our activities as outrageous would you.

LOL WELL SAID - EXCELLENT DELIVERY!

quote:

Originally posted by blast99:
Heh, and exactly what sort of "belief system" is it that scientists use? I'm afraid your statement shows that you have no clue what science even is.

lol i have to laugh since i am very well qualified to know and understand.

quote:

Originally posted by interceptor:

quote:

Originally posted by malcolm/monica:

quote:

Originally posted by interceptor:
A fairy on a christmas tree for a start.Sorry,I do believe you meant angels.

I hate to disappoint you but I dont celebrate xmas because i'm not Christian - but, if I gave up my faith and ran down to B&Q for my crimbo tree and put a fairy/angel on it - would I be accepted by you as fully integrated?

Dear interceptor...this is all very'tounge in cheek' but I did say it would be a start.I am a Christian,althought I hav'nt renounced the faith cos I don't take religion seriously since I stopped going to Sunday school at a young age.I thought it was all rubbish even then.You should'nt denegrate the Christian Faith...the word is Christmas...After Christ.I may not believe but many do.'Crimbo' as you call is meant as a jibe.I have not jibed at your faith.All I ask is for you and others to make every effort,as your book says,and not take the mickey.

No you have not jibed at my faith simply applauded everyone else for saying what you couldn't - I dont need you to tell me to integrate just as much as you dont want Islam shoved down your throat. I was born here and I have been a law abiding, tax paying citizen. I have courtesy for others and I treat everyone who I meet whatever culture or colour or religion they are with RESPECT - something this forum is lacking.[/QUOTE]
O.K. but I did not intentionally endorse any jibing,just what I thought were sound points.By the way,'I ai'nt fic'as you implied,just that I type very slowly and have not yet mastered 'cut & paste.Thank you for your comments.

Thats the problem with islam, why can i not make my own conclusion, you have your conclusion and i have mine. Its called freedom of thought.

For most of us he was just some other medevial leader. When i read about him i did not know who he was and had no prejudice so it is i think a fair conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by interceptor:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:

quote:

Originally posted by qatil:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:
Why did they marched asking for the head of Soliman Rushdie?

According to pseudointellectual wendymann, because Salam WANTED this reaction i.e. he deliberately provoked a response calling for his murder.

In reality, it is because Salman drew the non-muslim's world attention to a serious flaw in Islam, the original Quran and Mohammed's true intentions. Muslims, especially its Sheikhs and Mullahs, can't stomach it. The Satanic Verses are a killer blow for the Quran.

Which march ? if you mean the one in London 18 years ago, i was there , ''The march was not organise for Rushdies head it was in protest to the offensive content in the book,

But then calling a Prophets wife a ''prostitute' may not be offensive for a lot of people , and that is only a matter of diffrent values in diffrent societies.....



And now you may think Rushdie now know every thing about Islam and its book and its FLAWS


bless you

Bull... there were calls for Salman to be executed. If your religion can not take any criticism / insults withpout resorting to dictatorial hysterical calls for murder, it is a seriously flawed religion. Face facts. Salman's book drew the attention of the world to the verses originally in the Quran and then removed on the pretence that they were inspired by Satan. Absolute nonsense. These verses prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Islam is an invention of your wicked, manipulating 'Prophet'. Face the truth.

If Salman Rushdie wrote a book blaspheming any other faith they would also be up in arms and rightly so - Remember how the Sikhs went wappy when a play was held in Birmingham? I doubt you have even read the book but just to let you know that most of what he wrote was and I quote from wiki "The novel consists of a frame narrative, using elements of magical realism", more like fantasy reading there were no hard facts about anything so what TRUTH is it that we are supposed to face except for your vile venomous hate filled rant - how very Christian...ISLAM is a religion thats growing daily even though you hate it - a following of more than 1.6 billion - hardly a flawed religion .... The truth you have to face is theres nothing you can do about it.[/QUOTE]

My simple answer to you is, the Sikhs in Birmingahm were also very nearly as guilty as the Muslims who objected to Salman (but, they did not call for murder) AND the christinas who objected to Jerry Springer Blah, blah, blah arer also guilty BUT, again, they DID NOT CALL FOR MUDER!!! GOT IT? The Sihks and Christians DID NOT CALL FOR MURDER!!

Muslims DO CALL FOR MURDER!!!

quote:

Originally posted by malcolm/monica:

quote:

Originally posted by interceptor:
A fairy on a christmas tree for a start.Sorry,I do believe you meant angels.

I hate to disappoint you but I dont celebrate xmas because i'm not Christian - but, if I gave up my faith and ran down to B&Q for my crimbo tree and put a fairy/angel on it - would I be accepted by you as fully integrated?

Dear interceptor...this is all very'tounge in cheek' but I did say it would be a start.I am a Christian,althought I hav'nt renounced the faith cos I don't take religion seriously since I stopped going to Sunday school at a young age.I thought it was all rubbish even then.You should'nt denegrate the Christian Faith...the word is Christmas...After Christ.I may not believe but many do.'Crimbo' as you call is meant as a jibe.I have not jibed at your faith.All I ask is for you and others to make every effort,as your book says,and not take the mickey.[/QUOTE]

No you have not jibed at my faith simply applauded everyone else for saying what you couldn't - I dont need you to tell me to integrate just as much as you dont want Islam shoved down your throat. I was born here and I have been a law abiding, tax paying citizen. I have courtesy for others and I treat everyone who I meet whatever culture or colour or religion they are with RESPECT - something this forum is lacking.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
Thats the problem with islam, why can i not make my own conclusion, you have your conclusion and i have mine. Its called freedom of thought.

For most of us he was just some other medevial leader. When i read about him i did not know who he was and had no prejudice so it is i think a fair conclusion.

Something like this then:

Say: O disbelievers! (1)
I worship not that which ye worship; (2)
Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3)
And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4)
Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5)
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)

.. thats the Koran for ya

quote:

Originally posted by campie:

quote:

Can you provide any evidence for this?

Look pal you can believe what you want, for me it stops with "9 year old child marries 58 year old man, people of that inclanation always make up stories to get what they want, read some psyhcology.

You can believe that poor Safiya fell in love with and "married" the man whos army just killed most of her clan including her husband, brother and father..on the same day.. I Dont!!

I am just not that gullible.. sorry. its does not make me a bigot or islmaphobe does it?

I just dont believe it..You go ahead!!

Just dont moralise.

joseph is said to have married a 11 yo mary?

the fact is that betrothel in those days was often of children , and life expectancy was little more than 40.

i think you are using the modern day mindset where (curiously all of the paedophiles that are reported in our media happen to be white men ) such relationships are construed as being abusive.

i can understand why for a person with a certain mindset it would be difficult to believe that relationships could exist that arent abusive in nature.

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:

quote:

Originally posted by interceptor:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:

quote:

Originally posted by qatil:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:
Why did they marched asking for the head of Soliman Rushdie?

According to pseudointellectual wendymann, because Salam WANTED this reaction i.e. he deliberately provoked a response calling for his murder.

In reality, it is because Salman drew the non-muslim's world attention to a serious flaw in Islam, the original Quran and Mohammed's true intentions. Muslims, especially its Sheikhs and Mullahs, can't stomach it. The Satanic Verses are a killer blow for the Quran.

Which march ? if you mean the one in London 18 years ago, i was there , ''The march was not organise for Rushdies head it was in protest to the offensive content in the book,

But then calling a Prophets wife a ''prostitute' may not be offensive for a lot of people , and that is only a matter of diffrent values in diffrent societies.....



And now you may think Rushdie now know every thing about Islam and its book and its FLAWS


bless you

Bull... there were calls for Salman to be executed. If your religion can not take any criticism / insults withpout resorting to dictatorial hysterical calls for murder, it is a seriously flawed religion. Face facts. Salman's book drew the attention of the world to the verses originally in the Quran and then removed on the pretence that they were inspired by Satan. Absolute nonsense. These verses prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Islam is an invention of your wicked, manipulating 'Prophet'. Face the truth.

If Salman Rushdie wrote a book blaspheming any other faith they would also be up in arms and rightly so - Remember how the Sikhs went wappy when a play was held in Birmingham? I doubt you have even read the book but just to let you know that most of what he wrote was and I quote from wiki "The novel consists of a frame narrative, using elements of magical realism", more like fantasy reading there were no hard facts about anything so what TRUTH is it that we are supposed to face except for your vile venomous hate filled rant - how very Christian...ISLAM is a religion thats growing daily even though you hate it - a following of more than 1.6 billion - hardly a flawed religion .... The truth you have to face is theres nothing you can do about it except infest forums like these and let us all know what a prat you are!

My simple answer to you is, the Sikhs in Birmingahm were also very nearly as guilty as the Muslims who objected to Salman (but, they did not call for murder) AND the christinas who objected to Jerry Springer Blah, blah, blah arer also guilty BUT, again, they DID NOT CALL FOR MUDER!!! GOT IT? The Sihks and Christians DID NOT CALL FOR MURDER!!

Muslims DO CALL FOR MURDER!!![/QUOTE]

And, again, I say to you, the verses refered to demonstrate, beyond any reasonable doubt, that your Prophet was a charlatan intent on manipulating the masses. You have stuopidly fallen for his manipulation.

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:
Muslims DO CALL FOR MURDER!!!

what about the christians who kill abortion doctors, isnt that murder?

or what about world leaders who talk about crusades, and tell us that god talks through them and then take us into illegal wars where they shock and awed 15000 innocent iraqis in less than 3 days.

quote:

the fact is that betrothel in those days was often of children , and life expectancy was little more than 40.

He was 58!! I dont accept that 9 year olds can consent to marrying 58 year old men, and i dont accept any man that carried out this act to be a prophet of mine, why is that a problem for you? , as i said you go ahead...

quote:

Originally posted by campie:

quote:

the fact is that betrothel in those days was often of children , and life expectancy was little more than 40.

He was 58!! I dont accept that 9 year olds can consent to marrying 58 year old men, and i dont accept any man that carried out this act to be a prophet of mine, why is that a problem for you? , as i said you go ahead...

If you believe her.. Her time of maraige is very much disputed internally between Shia and Sunni. The sunni have to believe her on this issue, because therwise it throws the rest of her testimony into doubt.

Greetings and peace be with you campie,

Thank you once again for your post.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:

quote:

Can you provide any evidence for this?

Look pal you can believe what you want

Thank you once again and, once again, I will extend the same courtesy to your good self.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
for me it stops with "9 year old child marries 58 year old man

I believe the Prophet was 54 years old at the time, but you will appreciate that history can be very hard to pin down at times.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
people of that inclanation always make up stories to get what they want

That is a generalisation. Generalisations seems to be one of the recurring themes on this message board, I must say.

Did you read the link that I provided, by the way?

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
You can believe that poor Safiya fell in love with and "married" the man whos army just killed most of her clan including her husband, brother and father..on the same day.. I Dont!!

Who is Safiya? I'm afraid you're not making much sense.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
I am just not that gullible.. sorry. its does not make me a bigot or islmaphobe does it?

I agree. The fact that you're not gullible has no bearing on whether or not you are a bigot or indeed an islamophobe.

quote:

Originally posted by campie:
Just dont moralise.

As I told you in my previous post, I am not moralising. I will repeat what I said. I was not trying to moralise. I merely decided to showcase the peaceful words of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as my signature for this forum. With all due respect, I fail to see your problem with it.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by wendymann:

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:
Muslims DO CALL FOR MURDER!!!

what about the christians who kill abortion doctors, isnt that murder?

or what about world leaders who talk about crusades, and tell us that god talks through them and then take us into illegal wars where they shock and awed 15000 innocent iraqis in less than 3 days.

Yes, Christians mudering doctors is wrong. Yes, crusades agaionst other belifs involving murder is wrong. Do you now, wendymann84, understand my position? RELIGIOUS CALLS TO KILLING IS WRONG!!!! That is my belief, whethet those religious calla are Muslim, Christian or anything elese. GOT IT?!!!

quote:

Originally posted by onlylovecanaveus:
Yes, Muslims calling for murder makes Islam wrong. I do not cut and paste.

Thats a nonsense argument.
Does unionists calling for murder make the ideology of unionism thus inherently wrong.

When Christian Spain murdered thousands of muslims for the crime of being Muslim, or Incans for being Incan, does that mak christianity wrong? Does the fact that there are english murderers in English jails make anything england says about anything wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by campie:

quote:

the fact is that betrothel in those days was often of children , and life expectancy was little more than 40.

He was 58!! I dont accept that 9 year olds can consent to marrying 58 year old men, and i dont accept any man that carried out this act to be a prophet of mine, why is that a problem for you? , as i said you go ahead...

i think that you have a certain mindset, one that reports to us that some (predominently) white men in this country have a liking for children and that those relationships are abusive in nature.

now there are many men who are quite capable of having a relationship that is not abusive, might even be for welfare and health of the child.

im wondering why you are finding it so hard to understand the concept of a non abusive realtionship. i dont understand that kind of mindset to be honest that is unable to accept that relationships can be based upon many things other than a sexual motive.

now it is not unknown in the modern era that we live in that some children are still betrothed to older men , some of it is tradition, custom some of it is for lack of finance - girls being a burden to a poor family - some of it is for political reason, for the joining of family clans etc.

now in history we had our royalty not only being married to 9 year olds they also had mistresses too of that age. so in an era where traditions, customs and where life expectancy was not that long compared to what we can achieve with modern medicine people acted differently and had a different cultural mindset than we have today.

as ive already stated there is a psychological flaw that expects all relationships between children and an adult man to be of a sexual nature.

that latter aspect i cannot do anything about, and cant understand the obsession that some have with child - sex.

DONT JUDGE ISLAM BY MUSLMS - JUDGE MUSLIMS BY ISLAM.

Thanks very much to everyone who contributed to this debate.

We have now closed this thread, but if you would like to comment on Mehdi Hasan’s blog about the programme, you can do so on the TV Show website.