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Originally posted by Ed B.:
We're keen to do so - what angles are you interested in?

Multiculturalism and Islam: what are the consequences of hosting an ideology which is frequently antithetical to a liberal, open society? (C.F. Holland)

Immigration and the Welfare State: what is the effect of immigration on the welfare state and what effect does the welfare state have on immigration?

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Originally posted by Ed B.:

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Originally posted by MIDGEBW:

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Originally posted by Ed B.:

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Originally posted by bjm:
OK how about following up these programmes with more on the same subject? Not every 40 years.

We're keen to do so - what angles are you interested in?

Well how about a serious look at the expectancy of many foreigners to tap into our benefits system? Our Education system? Our national health system? real issues faced by ordinary British people every day.

On the list!

EdB

The british have a great afinity with history.Yet they conveniently forget some of the important bits.
Work Permit holders who pay in excess of 40% tax are entitled to NO benefits like myself and we implore CH4 to carry out a study on the salaries of professional migrants who are treated disdainly by there peers with regard to job mobility and salary. Some are refusing to settle because the home office does not encourage settlement with its extortionate fees to renew visas , change jobs etc.
We essentially work to keep the unemployed at home and the drug addicts pumped up.

The fact that Britain is not as GREAt is a real threat with CHINA et al.
Therefore the eassyjet option though it flies in the face of British way of life is the reality of capitalism.

the benefits does not stop with the ordinary citizen it extends to farmers entreperneurs where does the money come from.... the working class.

Lets say all us immigrants go lets set the gov and the itellects at oxford, cambridge and uni a challenge...... what will this mean for britain.

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Originally posted by magic_uk-pl:

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Originally posted by jimboy007:

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Originally posted by magic_uk-pl:

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Originally posted by jimboy007:
Hi, As far as I remember, the EU was 6 countries wanting free trade ! Now half the world either belongs, or wants to belong to Europe. No politician has asked me if I wanted Poland or the rest of them to join the EU! Undoubtedly we have many of our own politicians with jobs, directorships and squiddgy hands in all sorts of pies that make them money, but when will the Brits ever get the opportunity to say what they think???

With regards to the Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians etc, then if they want to come to this country to work, then fine, just let's operate a similar system to the USA where they get a green card, emergency medical attention only, no priority for living 24 to a house, no translators, and more fundementally, no family allowances either here or to be sent back home unless they have worked and paid taxes for at least 5 years.

If I went to Poland and asked for a council house, I would not be understood, I would not get a translator, I would not get benefits and I would have to sleep on the street.

Why are we so damned stupid? purely because of people like Teflon Tony, God Gordon and every stupid MP who doesn't have to live near them, compete for housing, benefits, work and most importantly equality for UK Citizens amongst them.

No wonder Brits are leaving in drones, but I bet they can't take their family allowances with them !!!!

You would be understood, you would get benefits and you would not sleep on the street. I gurantee this without doubt... And that's the whole idea of EU...

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are deffinately wrong! Having purchased property in Spain, (part of the EU before Poland), I found difficulties with language, no translators, no social (council houses) no speaky spanish no workie, and deffinately no benefits or family allowances. You people seem to live in a world of your own and must live in a parallel universe! Get back to the concept of my piece and answer correctly.

Guess where I got the info from?... I'm polish...100% no mixed blood for your info 90% of "Poland"" speaks english

If 90% of Polish people speak English why is it that families are ariving here that speak no English at all. It's amazing how our education system can find the funds to help these children whilst placing financial restrictions on spending on our own children. I currently work in a private nursing home and am one of only a few english people there working as a carer. Many of the forgeign workers have bought their children here and are having them educated in our local school where they are given extra help because of the language barrier. I however was told that my own son could not get extra help despite being diagnosed with ADHD because he was not considered bad enough. Both my husband and I have contributed to this country in taxes, is it any wonder we have such a downer on these people?

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Originally posted by Ed B.:
Thanks to everyone who has taken part - some really interesting views, and suggestions. I'm off to think up some more controversial series! Good night!

good night and thank you for avoiding my very plausible question like the plague...waste of time

Don't forget - it's Anzac Day on Friday......So how come an Australian is more 'foreign' than a member of the EU???

He speaks English (admittedly with a funny accent!), drives on the same side of the road, has the same system of democracy, and even has the same Queen - it's a Commonwealth country. But none of that seems to count for anything, if he wants to come here and marry me (which he does) we have to jump through all the stressful (and expensive) hoops of the Immigration process. The EU immigrants are VERY different, but they have it soooo easy....why?

Thanks for all your comments everyone, we've really enjoyued the debate tonight. I'll check back to see how the conversation progresses and let Ed and Samir know if you have any more burning questions.

I hope you continue to enjoy the debate tonight.

Goodnight

C4 Admin

Having watched only parts 2 & 3 of this program and reading some of the comments in this forum, it has become apparent that some ‘history’ needs to be provided here in order to see things in perspective. I think Britons should understand that the places where these ‘immigrants’ are coming from have been decimated by a century of: two world wars, civil wars, the machinations of the Cold War and oppressive communist regimes. These are countries that have not had the benefit of hundreds of years of political or economic stability as has been enjoyed here in Britain. These were the very battlefields where WW1 & 2 were fought (lets not forget that Britain entered WW2 because Germany invaded Poland in 1939). Then at the Yalta Conference in 1945, the victors sat and decided on the fates of many of they these countries; if they were in the West they’d prosper, if they were in the East – well, they got 50 years of communism.

It’s taken this long for these countries to become relatively politically stable and modernisation is not widespread – these are things that Britain has had for centuries. These countries need time to stabilise politically and then economically. The legacy the disastrous 20th century wars has left behind are now being felt into the next generation.

Does this solve the 'immigration problem', of course not but I hope it helps one to see it from a different point of view.

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Originally posted by M1dge:

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Originally posted by Joshh:

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Originally posted by M1dge:

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Originally posted by Joshh:
One thing people often forget (although it was touched on in the programme) is how hard it is to move country, especially when you don't speak the language.

No one would do it if there wasn't a strong work ethic and determination to suceed, and that is something that can benefit the host country.

But if I were to move country I would learn the language before I went and try and speak it when I got there. A lot of the immigrants on the show had to be translated.

I am planning on moving to Japan at some point and so I am starting Japanese lessons in the near future.

M1dge, learning the language makes sense if you're planning to treat the destination country as a semi/permanent home. However if, as we saw earlier, the object is just to work, earn, and then leave, then learning the language is not necessarily economically useful. Especially if there is already an established community you can link into. The question is, are the people already here calling home with the message, "If you come here and work hard you'll make good money" or are they calling home and saying "come to the UK, get benefits and housing life is easy". I may be wrong, but I don't think it's the second one.

If you are looking at eastern Europeans then yes that is the case, it is not 'economically useful' however why is there a situation where they have the choice?

If you look further than Europe, at immigration from Asia for example, a wide number of people don't speak English and don't feel they should have to. I spent a good number of years in Bradford and this is from experience.

Hi Midge, I also have spent time in Bradford and other communities which might be called 'insular' or 'ghettoised', but frankly I wouldn't worry about it too much. In my experience the youngsters in the community will never be constrained by the imaginary walls between communities, they will assimilate and mix at every level with UK society, even if their parents don't make a 100% integration. It's happened with every previous wave of immigration, and I expect it wil be the same going forward

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Originally posted by Ed B.:

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Originally posted by jimboy007:
C4 Admin, Are you planning any series on British Migrants going to Poland and the rest of the Eu countries, do you think you will show them in such a positive light ???? I don't think so !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would we not? "Aufwiedersehen Pet" was on British TV and was a great precedent!

This is typical, are you seriously saying that 4 geordie lads going to Germany, is the equeivelant of tens of thousands of EU migrants not only coming over here, but that the four lads drained Germanies rescources to the same extent? If you find anyone of a similar intelligence to "normal" perhaps you could come back with a decent reply :-)

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Originally posted by Ed B.:

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Originally posted by mojo101:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Samir S:
Well, the evidence is that more and more British workers are going abroad for jobs. I think the figure from the Home Office was 400,000 every year. So it is happening in some parts of the economy. The question is whether that kind of determination will spread to others

Sure, some Britons can get jobs abroad. (I suspect that there are more people working here than there are Britons working abroad though?) But are these the same people who are finding themselves disadvantaged by large numbers of immigrants? It would have been interesting to have a better analysis of who the winners and losers are. I'd suspect the results would be that middle classes do well (from a purely economic standpoint), and working class people are worse off? I don't know for sure, but it would have been interesting to get this analysis.

What about the migrants who went to Middle east in the 80s to make there millions and the ones now in Iraq and other parts of thhe world. Who by the way are treated better as immigrants abroad than there own country treats its own immigrants.

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Originally posted by Boja:
Are we not all Immigrants?
Immigration is as old as Britain
10,000 BC – The first Britons settled in Southern and Eastern England migrating from mainland Europe
pre 1066- A succession of invading forces brought new people and their cultures to what is modern-day Britain. These included the Romans, Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Vikings
1066 - The Normans invade Britain and become the dominant force. Their legacy laid the foundations of the Britain we live in today
1560 - Dutch Protestants fleeing religious persecution make their way to Britain
1685 - Religious persecution forces 100,000 Huguenots (French Protestants) to leave France for Britain
1840s - Widespread famine forces thousands of people to leave Ireland. Many come to Britain
1848 - With a spate of revolutions breaking out in mainland Europe, Britain becomes the destination of choice for many refugees
1880s - Fleeing oppression in Europe, hundreds of thousands of Jews seek sanctuary in Britain
1914 – 1918 - The First World War creates huge numbers of refugees, many of whom choose to escape mainland Europe and come to Britain
1939 – 1945 - Again with the outbreak of the Second World War, refugees seek to escape Nazi rule and the fighting by travelling to the UK
1946 - Hundreds of thousands of people from across Eastern Europe seek refuge in the UK following the establishment of Communism
1948 - Many West Indians decide to settle in Britain, which needs to boost its depleted workforce after WW2
1972 - 28,000 Ugandan Asians settle in the UK after being expelled from Ugand
1975 - Political unrest and war in South-East Asia results in many seeking a new life in Britain
1980s - Attracted by opportunities for those with specialist skills and professional training, large numbers of Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans move to the UK
1992 – 1998 - Ethnic disputes in the Balkans force thousands to seek refuge in Western Europe. Many seek asylum in the UK

Even if you were fpro-immigration, that is a poor argument. When my East European ancestors were immigranting about 100 years ago, immigration was at 30,000 people per year tops. The "local" community had no chance of being dominated. My ancestors integrated damm hard, like they wanted to be English gentleman straight away. Now its different, as the documentry said, migration is more about a large flow of short term migrants in and out of the city. In a place like London, the number of people who are here for a short stay money making stay is huge, and as a result the place feels like it has no indentity other than making money. I like meeting people from the round the world, but at the loss of Britishness.

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Originally posted by Gouryella:

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Originally posted by Samir S:
What did people make of Rageh as a presenter?

I thought he was very good,he usually is.

Rageh was excellent

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Originally posted by Boja:
Are we not all Immigrants?
Immigration is as old as Britain
10,000 BC – The first Britons settled in Southern and Eastern England migrating from mainland Europe
pre 1066- A succession of invading forces brought new people and their cultures to what is modern-day Britain. These included the Romans, Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Vikings
1066 - The Normans invade Britain and become the dominant force. Their legacy laid the foundations of the Britain we live in today
1560 - Dutch Protestants fleeing religious persecution make their way to Britain
1685 - Religious persecution forces 100,000 Huguenots (French Protestants) to leave France for Britain
1840s - Widespread famine forces thousands of people to leave Ireland. Many come to Britain
1848 - With a spate of revolutions breaking out in mainland Europe, Britain becomes the destination of choice for many refugees
1880s - Fleeing oppression in Europe, hundreds of thousands of Jews seek sanctuary in Britain
1914 – 1918 - The First World War creates huge numbers of refugees, many of whom choose to escape mainland Europe and come to Britain
1939 – 1945 - Again with the outbreak of the Second World War, refugees seek to escape Nazi rule and the fighting by travelling to the UK
1946 - Hundreds of thousands of people from across Eastern Europe seek refuge in the UK following the establishment of Communism
1948 - Many West Indians decide to settle in Britain, which needs to boost its depleted workforce after WW2
1972 - 28,000 Ugandan Asians settle in the UK after being expelled from Ugand
1975 - Political unrest and war in South-East Asia results in many seeking a new life in Britain
1980s - Attracted by opportunities for those with specialist skills and professional training, large numbers of Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans move to the UK
1992 – 1998 - Ethnic disputes in the Balkans force thousands to seek refuge in Western Europe. Many seek asylum in the UK

So you are saying between 1066 and 1840 approx 800 years we had 100,000 immigrants.
Lets repeat that 100,000 immigrants in 800 years !
And they integrated so successfully that you couldnt point out any Huguenots today!

That bears no resemblance whatsoever to the immigration we have had under new labour.

RACISIM IS A CONTRADICTION.... in the fact that you are on a side, if you are acusing some1 of being a racist you are racist yourself. Being that the fact that you have a disliking of some1 elses opinion or beliefs... if that makes any sense to any1... Thats how racisim is today!

I am a 22 year old Lad who Loves every1. I despise war, violence and people who dont think.
I have been bought up in a world were in my eyes no matter what colour you are, race you are or where your from it doesnt matter as long as i can understand you and can communicate with me... WE ARE THE NEW GENERATION, THE DECISIONS OF OUR COUNTRY WILL SOON BE IN OUR HANDS Quite frankly I find it rather amuzing that Us as human beings think we have the right to make the decision of who should do what and who should go where *BUT*.... At this moment in time i am forced to make the choice that i do NOT want anymore immigrants or Eastern Europeans flooding over the peaceful tiny generous walls of this land... We are being taken advantage of, and if people wish to put their views across they should not be told they are Racist or made to shy away....

People should be allowed to say what they feel without being judged or named... If you offend some1 so the hell what, if you dont speak the truth, the bottle will become full and explode into something bigger.....

Government sort your mess out, you are playing with our lives...

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Originally posted by bagel queen:

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Originally posted by Gouryella:

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Originally posted by magic_uk-pl:
ok cu later fellas... going to work now to earn some brithish pounds while you go to sleep and keep being lazy ... all you can do is just talk and debate ... U could all live in no. 10 have a good night and get to work

Are you going off for some English lessons?.

what disrespect for a country that has given you jobs over their own fellow people, refunded all tax you have paid here on return to poland..child benefit paid to whoever in different countries...I used to own an Employment Agency and have seen first hand the demand from the April (beginning of tax year) right through till May for P60S to claim all back...you have never had it so good at Britains expense...

Damn right.We should have set limits like most of the rest of the EU did.
Nah,soft PC human rights government traitors.
Now i have to fight for a half decent job,harder than ever before.Because the Poles don't know how to say no,employers are now giving them preference over Brits.You couldn't make it up.

The 'arnt we all immigrants' arguement. Maybe so but its totally different today and you know it. The muslim enclaves of the north of england are of concern, the million sof eastern europeans taking advantage of the 21st century communism promoted by the EU. The world is a lot smaller than it used to be and with airtravel and the internet people are wanting to come to any country where they can simply 'get more' and they will stay unil they 'cant get so much' and go to where they can 'get more'.

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Originally posted by Kufah:

The other side is that traditional communities are being broken up by people coming and going, and British people feel that they are being forced to leave our shores, to better themselves abroad, because they are being undercut by foreign workers.
So the Brits who leave, feel like they have no roots in Britain no more. We all need to feel rooted to something familliar. Foreign workers still have their roots in other countries. As many have said, they are only here to work, their roots lie in their homeland.
But British people feel that their homeland is being eroded, and that we no longer matter anymore. We are just cogs in a global machine. But at no time have we been asked if we wanted these changes, or if we wanted to be part of a "new world order". It is dispicable that the very people who built this country up, should be treated in this way, by money hungry business owners, and Vile politicians.
I for one am extremely angry. Britain is my HOME, and my BIRTHRIGHT, not a commodity for some self serving politicians to float on the stock market.
I would be interested to know how many other indigenous Britons felt like this.

Kufah, I hear your cries. But get this - you are feeling around 100th of how many detached young Afro-Caribbeans and Afro American feel.

This is a good thing as we can now have a dialogue.

The Inconvenient Truth is We The British Citizens were never asked if this was what we wanted . And in fact the English people were not asked (90% of immigrants settle in England (House Lords report)).

Contrary to most views the British people are welcoming for immigrants , but not when it is forced on us and when we say anything we are branded a racist !

I do not blame the Pols or any other migrant worker or immigrant , I would have done the same as them if I were them.

This current wave of immigration and migration workers are coming from the EU and this will continue for a few decades yet with more countries joining .

So it comes down to this , how many people can you fit in a 10ft by 10ft room without social cohesion breaking down and quality of life for British Citizens degrading ?

I have heard no answer to this

What a whitewash! "Immigration: the inconvenient truth" was a series which promised well but finished poorly. In trying to cover all the bases Mr Omah failed to realise that he was confusing two distinct issues, both of which he covered in the series but only one of which really related to the famous "Rivers of blood speech". The first concerned the eastern Europeans who may be resented by those who have lost their jobs as a result of their influence on wages but whose presence, even in large numbers has nothing to do with the "rivers of blood" evoked in Enoch Powell's speech. The second concerned those who came from that part of the world to which Powell's speech refered - especially the Indian subcontinent - and whose population density in most of their UK communities has now reached critical mass, thereby allowing its members to live the parallel and independent lifestyles to which the series referred and which threaten to bring about the very outcomes that Powell predicted. (And to which the second programme referred). To try to confabulate the two issues was at best clumsy and careless and at worst an attempt to confuse peoples' sensiblilties in the way that those who spoke of "asylum seekers" did in the 90's when we know today that in the vast majority of cases they were really talking about immigration but through a combination of PC and the drip, drip of misrepesentation gave us a false and more acceptable impression of immigration. Not until those communities from the Indian subcontinent - and in particular Pakistan - have become better assimilated into the wider community will the possibiliy of Powell's predictions start to fade. That is the real "inconvenient truth" that, once evoked you should have concentrated on. But then when you have to be even-handed, as TV journalsits have to be how are you ever going to be able to tell any "inconvenient truths" if they are not those "truths?" that have to be accepted by the established communities? Your theme - referring to Powell's speech might have been sensationalist - but what it inspired in your series was anything but. And in the end it was just another piece of TV gloss of the kind we have come to expect masquerading as "serious commentary". That, for me, was the only real "inconvenient truth" in all this.

I agree, the muslim areas featured in the second programme must of boiled the blood of many brits. Its not racism but when people set up camp with their own culture and language in a country far from the one they feel so attached to - the reasons for them being here are quite obvious.