I am writing in reply to the Dispatches programme - The Inconvenient Truth, as I am concerned at the lack of financial information this programme failed to bring to air on the wages issue! I am a Coach Driver in the East Midlands & earning a low wage(just above minimum wage) as the employers of coach drivers refuse to increase the wages to a more Professional level on a par with domestic bus drivers. All the employers say is that there are plenty of Polish or other Eastern Europeans after our jobs, who will work for minimum wage! Is this the answer to the problem? I fear not!!! I heard on tonights programme that we(The British) should get our Easyjet plane & find work elsewhere, but where else in Europe can I find this tpye of work that pays a decent wage that you can support your family on? Is this not why the Polish & other Eastern Europeans are in the UK to earn a decent wage? In Poland & other Eastern European countries, the wages are even lower than here in the Uk, so can someone please tell where I can earn 3 times the wage I get in the East Midlands & I to shall go & earn a decent wage outside my own country! If this is the fate of a working man in the UK,then I fear very much for the industies in the UK!!!!!!!!!! GOD HELP US!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safe D:

quote:

Originally posted by Kufah:

The other side is that traditional communities are being broken up by people coming and going, and British people feel that they are being forced to leave our shores, to better themselves abroad, because they are being undercut by foreign workers.
So the Brits who leave, feel like they have no roots in Britain no more. We all need to feel rooted to something familliar. Foreign workers still have their roots in other countries. As many have said, they are only here to work, their roots lie in their homeland.
But British people feel that their homeland is being eroded, and that we no longer matter anymore. We are just cogs in a global machine. But at no time have we been asked if we wanted these changes, or if we wanted to be part of a "new world order". It is dispicable that the very people who built this country up, should be treated in this way, by money hungry business owners, and Vile politicians.
I for one am extremely angry. Britain is my HOME, and my BIRTHRIGHT, not a commodity for some self serving politicians to float on the stock market.
I would be interested to know how many other indigenous Britons felt like this.

Kufah, I hear your cries. But get this - you are feeling around 100th of how many detached young Afro-Caribbeans and Afro American feel.

This is a good thing as we can now have a dialogue.

As a working British citizen with 6 children I feel we have been sailed down the river by the current government on these issues. It's time for the British people to start voting these idiots out!

quote:

Originally posted by trigga1uk:
I find it all very depressing. Is this what everyone who comes here is after 'money'. The 'i can get more if i go here attitude' is really depressing. Are true values of community and national pride dead in a world where money comes first, it seems to be a priority for the Polish. I had a bit of a probelm with people that come here to drain as much as possible from us then strike their tents and bugger off home. A vulture springs to mind, pick the last pieces of off a corpse before you find a better option.

I agree, he sort world are we going to become if we all become globe trotting money seekers. Maybe its a socialist idea for a world government and indentity.

quote:

Originally posted by RichmondGreen:
The conclusion of the programme that British people should understand the new temporary nature of immigration ignores the new reality of the world. It is true that migration is an inevitable consequence of Globalisation, but what the programme does not recognise is that Globalisation itself is doomed, because it (& the migration it encourages) is not sustainable. As we speak the oil, gas and other commodities are running out and Government's obsession with Growth is leading to the inevitable economic crash. We need to be building a simpler more sustainable society that does not encourage migration, but encourages communities to be self supporting and to consume less, not more. We should oppose migration not for reasons of rascist bigotry, but to build a more sustainable world where people look to develop their local economies and societies are not ripped apart by the greed of the global economy.

Spot on. We all get worried about what we are losing as a result of the changes, but my earlier points suggested that we have all wasted so much time chasing the big buck, that we have neglected the real wealth of servicing communities with self-sufficiency.

This i situation is that messed up it just makes my mind go.... ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by steve powell:
i live in herefordshire, school leaver's who do not go on to further education etc are unable to find unskilled job's as they are taken up by migrant workers, is this not an inbalance and how do they get job's locally ?

Thats an important point. Why would a company train uk school leavers and graduates if they can get experienced people from elsewhere. Half my graduate friends from a respected university have failed to get graduate jobs. Its a real flaw in the mass economic migration theory. In London, I've been told by migrant workers, that they never consider you for a job even slightly outside your area of experience, its simply arrive and go, not even a bit of time to adjust or learn a new thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Boja:
I am wondering, are Polish fighter pilots who saved your bacon just few decades back.... what about the many commonwealth soldiers who bled and died for the British cause..... What about the wealth you reaped from africa and elsewhere to maintain the comfort and luxury of life you enjoy today.... Britain is ours as much as it is yours... it is also our wealth, our sweat and blood that built this country!

Boja, be careful what you wish for

quote:

Originally posted by Privates On Parade:
Is there an optimum population level this country can support, if so what is the approximate figure?

Did my question get answered?

quote:

Originally posted by an immigrant:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dansue:
HHi Dansue,

YOur question was: HOw much net contribution is made by the Polish family with 2 children who is waiting for the child benefit?
My answer would be: Exactly the same amount as the contribution made by an English person. My husband and I both work and pay the same taxes as English people do. Why can your taxes pay for your children's education but my taxes cannot pay for my chilren's education is beyond me. PLease explain.

Let me explain - 4 or 5 generations of taxes paid by my family enable me to send my child to school without the need for an interpreter. How long have you and your family been contributing to the British economy? Why should you receive child benefit, NHS or free schooling?

quote:

Originally posted by Exexpat:

quote:

Originally posted by Ed B.:

quote:

Originally posted by hardwon:
Enoch Powell was 100% right. Immigration IS Britain's Funeral Pyre.

If Britains are now to be expected to pack up and leave and become immigrants ourselves in order to prove that immigration is a sound concept?

Oh dear.

I disagree. Our point by the end of the series was that Enoch Powell turned out to be limited in his perspective and that, in turn, means that perhaps he should no longer be deployed as a cornerstone in the immigration debate. And should we go abroad? what about Australia? Or the US? Nothing new .... but perhaps we should have a longer and more critical historical perspective.

It is not so easy to look for a job in US or Australia as their immigration rules are much stricter than UK's - and its further to go than Eastern Europe to UK. In Canada you cannot be offered work if the employment arm of the government think that there are Canadians available to do the job.

That isthe point that really annoys me, if we are open, others must be as open.

Well, if nothing else, this programme has invited the most "new members" Channel 4 News Forum has ever seen in one night!!!!!!

I hope some will stay around for future debates - in whichever guise they choose

quote:

Originally posted by Safe D:

quote:

Originally posted by nyunyu:
I felt it more than like turn the British people against the Polish poeple. And I can see in this forum that is quite successful.UK is part of the EU. There are people from UK who work in the other EU country.
Just think about USA.How is it looks like if people are going to live from Utah (where is not good the economical position) to California. And in California they do the same telly programm.
Seconed think. Soldiers from Poland was alliance of the British army in the II WW. But Britania forget them after Yalta.And what do you think about it? Poland never did a big problem of it. But this is the result, that they are here now.
And you can have a look on the statistic, how many people from the EU work in the care homes to look after the british very ill erderly people.

Nyunyu, I hope that you do not take this personally, because I think that that peoples views on immigration is all managed by our governments.

I would not be surprised if you were told one thing in your country, and we were told something else in ours. This is what leads to mis-understandings and conflicts. This happened in the 60s when British people were not advised of the impact that Asians and West Indian immigration would have on them.

The politicians were only thinking about their money.

I am no taking personali anything, just do not think that programm was fair. Lot of immigrants are in the UK and most of them came here, because in their country impossible to live a normal life.We just took this chance.But I know it is all about politics.And I know,this program is the beginning of something... and its make me sad.

quote:

Originally posted by xjonboy:
The latest programme concluded that the recent wave of immigrants were "only visiting", but actually your own poll said 28 per cent thought they would probably stay. Twenty-eight per cent of the net million in the last few years is, of course, 280,000 - a city the size of Bristol. Add on their dependants whom they would want to bring over and you can multiply that by three.

Actually, the Poles are good workers and from our own ethnicity. I do feel that ethnicity goes to the heart of the problem: we human tribes like to stick together, which is why there are so many ethnic ghettos in this country.

We should not be afraid to say that we would like to preserve the traditional, cultural, ethnic and religious profile of the country, without being made to feel guilty about it.

Xjonboy, that is a damn fool statement. I am with you for being proud, but don't be fooled into thinking that "your ethnicity" monopolises good ethics.

The cause of ghettos is manifold one main cause being the fragmentation of family values of which, the slave trade played a huge part in, OH and wasn't that your tribe as well?

The cars, the hoovers, the heating, the jewellry the manufacturing, we thank you for. But it has come at a price hasn't it?!!

Apparently things are on the up in Poland just now - maybe that would be a good place for all us British "Emmigrants" to go?

I hope their Health/Housing/Education Systems can cope, after all ours has had to!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safe D:

quote:

Originally posted by Boja:
I am wondering, are Polish fighter pilots who saved your bacon just few decades back.... what about the many commonwealth soldiers who bled and died for the British cause..... What about the wealth you reaped from africa and elsewhere to maintain the comfort and luxury of life you enjoy today.... Britain is ours as much as it is yours... it is also our wealth, our sweat and blood that built this country!

Boja, be careful what you wish for

I hate it when people raise old irrelavent scores. If you want to raise old scores, I as a British Jew, should be against the recent Polish immigration, because of their anti-semitism during the WW2 and earlier which forced my ancestors to move to Britain. No I wouldn't be, because its a different generation, this British generation has nothing to do with British colonialism of last, as much as this Polish generation has anything to do with 1930's anti-semitism.

Just as Muslims in this country are denied the right to have thier say on our foreign policy in Muslim lands,causing all the fault lines, the British people are denied the acknowledgment that immigration is an imported drain on the country and economy. Most Eastern Europeans only work six months then hop back and forth to their home counties to avoid paying tax here.

I think that the program was wrong to try to demonize Europeans, by trying to paint them as the main source of immigration. And sloppy in not bothering to consult the government statistics.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/intmigrat1106.pdf

Which would have told them that in say 2005 Net immigration was highest from the New commonwealth countries.
"There were 121,000 New Commonwealth citizens
migrating long-term for over a year into the UK."
"There were 64,000 more A8 citizens who migrated long-term into the UK than left in 2005. This compares with a net in-flow estimate of 49,000 A8 citizens in 2004."

So the program completely failed to look at the statistics and jumped to false conclusions.
I.e. it said that the Eastern Europeans where going home so there was nothing to worry about.
It failed to say that Eastern Europeans arent the biggest source of long term migrants, and that numbers are on such a scale that even 20 percent staying represents a large demographic.
Oh and that Poles are central Europeans, not Eastern Europeans !

Btw Im not complaining about anyone of any race marrying any English person and staying in the UK. I dont even mind levels of migration i.e. one in one out which dont result in overcrowding
and where people integrate. And I dont even mind a fixed number of people being allowed to work (not breed such that we are forced to inherit their descendants) in the uk, and send remittances home.


Everything Powell said applies today and now the situation is a lot worse than what he was complaining about. I.e. lot higher levels of immigration and low levels of integration.

If there is one thing the program makers should look at it is New Labours massive scale of Gerrymandering citizenship for votes.

What percentage of New labour voters are immigrants and their descendants who are not descended in any way from anyone who lived in the uk in say 1940 ? I.e. here to replace the native population not integrate with it.
Im pretty sure ethnic replacement of the native population is a crime. It looks to me to be what is happening because of new labours policies.
Will the pro gramme makers look at what amounts to the demographic warfare which is being carried out by the government against the native UK population ?

quote:

Originally posted by nyunyu:

quote:

Originally posted by Safe D:

quote:

Originally posted by nyunyu:
I felt it more than like turn the British people against the Polish poeple. And I can see in this forum that is quite successful.UK is part of the EU. There are people from UK who work in the other EU country.
Just think about USA.How is it looks like if people are going to live from Utah (where is not good the economical position) to California. And in California they do the same telly programm.
Seconed think. Soldiers from Poland was alliance of the British army in the II WW. But Britania forget them after Yalta.And what do you think about it? Poland never did a big problem of it. But this is the result, that they are here now.
And you can have a look on the statistic, how many people from the EU work in the care homes to look after the british very ill erderly people.

Nyunyu, I hope that you do not take this personally, because I think that that peoples views on immigration is all managed by our governments.

I would not be surprised if you were told one thing in your country, and we were told something else in ours. This is what leads to mis-understandings and conflicts. This happened in the 60s when British people were not advised of the impact that Asians and West Indian immigration would have on them.

The politicians were only thinking about their money.

I am no taking personali anything, just do not think that programm was fair. Lot of immigrants are in the UK and most of them came here, because in their country impossible to live a normal life.We just took this chance.But I know it is all about politics.And I know,this program is the beginning of something... and its make me sad.

'in their country impossible to live a normal life' - surely the life they had was normal for the country they came from. It may have not been as 'comfortable' as a life in the UK but they're the cards you are dealt. If enough people leech from the economy over here, the UK will end up as crappy as the countries other people are coming from. Any by 'crappy' I mean in terms of the country being stable and wealthy, not in terms of culture or religion before any lefty starts crying.

quote:

Originally posted by freespirit45:

quote:

Originally posted by an immigrant:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dansue:
HHi Dansue,

YOur question was: HOw much net contribution is made by the Polish family with 2 children who is waiting for the child benefit?
My answer would be: Exactly the same amount as the contribution made by an English person. My



husband and I both work and pay the same taxes as English people do. Why can your taxes pay for your children's education but my taxes cannot pay for my chilren's education is beyond me. PLease explain.

Let me explain - 4 or 5 generations of taxes paid by my family enable me to send my child to school without the need for an interpreter. How long have you and your family been contributing to the British economy? Why should you receive child benefit, NHS or free schooling?

We have been contributing for the last 10 years. Is this not enough? I got educated in Poland for pthe polish taxpayer's money and came here fully qualified and ready to work. So I do think my contribution is valuable. And if you want to go generations back, do I need to mention that my grandfather fought for your country in the battle of England. Talking about contributions.

quote:

Originally posted by Safe D:

quote:

Originally posted by xjonboy:
Actually, the Poles are good workers and from our own ethnicity. I do feel that ethnicity goes to the heart of the problem: we human tribes like to stick together, which is why there are so many ethnic ghettos in this country.

We should not be afraid to say that we would like to preserve the traditional, cultural, ethnic and religious profile of the country, without being made to feel guilty about it.

Xjonboy, that is a damn fool statement. I am with you for being proud, but don't be fooled into thinking that "your ethnicity" monopolises good ethics.

The cause of ghettos is manifold one main cause being the fragmentation of family values of which, the slave trade played a huge part in, OH and wasn't that your tribe as well?

The cars, the hoovers, the heating, the jewellry the manufacturing, we thank you for. But it has come at a price hasn't it?!!

Actually the Poles are Western Slavs. The British were Norman or Anglo-Saxon or earlier Celtic tribes or earlier Beaker people.

This is one of the problems of this argument, all these poeple migrated to the UK at some time or other.

quote:

Originally posted by Vic-H:
I am writing in reply to the Dispatches programme - The Inconvenient Truth, as I am concerned at the lack of financial information this programme failed to bring to air on the wages issue! I am a Coach Driver in the East Midlands & earning a low wage(just above minimum wage) as the employers of coach drivers refuse to increase the wages to a more Professional level on a par with domestic bus drivers. All the employers say is that there are plenty of Polish or other Eastern Europeans after our jobs, who will work for minimum wage! Is this the answer to the problem? I fear not!!! I heard on tonights programme that we(The British) should get our Easyjet plane & find work elsewhere, but where else in Europe can I find this tpye of work that pays a decent wage that you can support your family on? Is this not why the Polish & other Eastern Europeans are in the UK to earn a decent wage? In Poland & other Eastern European countries, the wages are even lower than here in the Uk, so can someone please tell where I can earn 3 times the wage I get in the East Midlands & I to shall go & earn a decent wage outside my own country! If this is the fate of a working man in the UK,then I fear very much for the industies in the UK!!!!!!!!!! GOD HELP US!!!!!!!!!

We are now in a 'devil take the hindmost world'. There is no 'profit' in a stable Britain where family life is valued.

Families can be contented and self sufficient - but the false premise of continued economic growth needs consumers. Contentment is not what is required - instead we must have never sated consumer units.
We must see the end of the British way of life as the price for this.
Cheaper goods, cheaper services and the lack of 'society'. Strange that, increasingly, the only communities featuring family life and a sense of community are those of immigrant ethnic origin.
For the indigenous British person the prospect now is to attemptmto move as fast up the skills ladder as possible to escape the tide of labour devaluation fast coming up behind.