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quote: Originally posted by tony138:
I live in northeast scotland and we are being invaded by middle to upper class english the people who say open our borders its good for the economy and makes us a multi cultural society then get the hell out of dodge so they don,t have to live in it
Quite. I moved to Dundee for that reason. Although I never approved of open Borders. I'm form Bradford. Nuff said. It does make me laugh though. Been here nearly six months and most of my neighbours are upper class English twits and the hordes of volvo driving, labrador owning folk in Carnoustie are all English ex-ex pats. Sorry mate but the English colonisation of Scotland is the new Zionism. Expect us to be walling you off and cutting off your electricity by the end of the century. We screwed up our bit of the island and we've been paying for your bit for so long we feel somehow its only fair. Where else are our kids going to get a free uni education? |
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fello brits we need to spend are money only with fello brits think and pull together NOW NOW
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quote: Originally posted by tony138: quote: Originally posted by tyger:
I think this immigration debate is just a small part of a much wider problem with Britain, mores specifically the political class running the country. They are all the same, upper middle class, out of touch, corrupt or simply incompetent. I think this started towards the end of the last conservative government, getting worse over the past 10 years. These people have forgotten who holds the real power in the country, the working class. No mater what spin they come out with we all know we have been kicked down to a point were we are all in a revolutionary mood. It’s time to rise up and remove the political “I’m alright jack” class in this country.
I stand, would fight and die for Secular liberal democracy for all, this is not what we have any more, It’s ultra capitalism were the haves want more and more until they explode like Mr creosote after one doggy mortgage to many. Let’s get rid of a political establishment that will put billions in to banking, but let an industry makes a proper product like rover and many more manufacturing industries die. These people are guilty of treason against the people of this country; let’s go back to putting people guilty of treason in the tower, for a stretch. Who’s with me? I’ve been kicked in the balls once to often know, I’m ready to take some heads.
Maybe the french had one good idea
Greedy Banker (holding gun to head of a scared looking member of the public): "Hand over the cash or the mortgage payer gets it!" Gordon Brown: "How much do you want?" |
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quote: Originally posted by Londoner1001: quote: Originally posted by CUCKOO123: quote: Originally posted by Safe D: quote: Originally posted by xjonboy:
Actually, the Poles are good workers and from our own ethnicity. I do feel that ethnicity goes to the heart of the problem: we human tribes like to stick together, which is why there are so many ethnic ghettos in this country.
We should not be afraid to say that we would like to preserve the traditional, cultural, ethnic and religious profile of the country, without being made to feel guilty about it.
Xjonboy, that is a damn fool statement. I am with you for being proud, but don't be fooled into thinking that "your ethnicity" monopolises good ethics. The cause of ghettos is manifold one main cause being the fragmentation of family values of which, the slave trade played a huge part in, OH and wasn't that your tribe as well? It was also your Tribe as well.Tribal Chiefs didn't mind a bit of the old round up a rival tribe and sell them to the Arabs either The cars, the hoovers, the heating, the jewellry the manufacturing, we thank you for. But it has come at a price hasn't it?!!
Actually the Poles are Western Slavs. The British were Norman or Anglo-Saxon or earlier Celtic tribes or earlier Beaker people. This is one of the problems of this argument, all these poeple migrated to the UK at some time or other.
I don't think we can compare the Anglo Saxon invasion of Britain 1500 years to Polish immigration as a result of open borders in the EU. I do however wonder what the Celts would have thought if their Kings had a policy of open unlimited immigration from Saxony.
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I think 2 important points were raised during the programme by Eastern Europeans, that actually go to the heart of British objection;
1. The Bulgarian said that when the British people decided to become part of the European Union, with its open borders we should have thought about the influx of cheap eastern European labour.
Well, therein lies the foundation of British objection - we NEVER have VOTED to be part of a European union.
We NEVER voted to be, DON'T WANT to be and hence NEVER WOULD vote to be part of a European Union. Europe and hence its cheap labour have been FORCED ON US through the back door, which adds salt to the wound.
Britain doesn't see itself as European - and we don't want to be part of Europe, research shows that we feel more akin to America than Europe.We object to everything European, whether it's metrication or Human rights laws that seem to put the rights of terrorists and criminals over law abiding tax payers.
2. The Polish lady talking about the extra help that non-English speaking children get in schools and the resulting drain on educational budgets, said that they pay tax and as such they should be treated EQUALLY.
Quite right!
So NO multi-million pound assessment centres and extra lessons for their children then?
Non-English speaking children can muddle through or their parents can pay for extra lessons just like the British have to whether emigrating or resident in the UK!
Furthermore, the programme failed to see that the fact these workers are 'Economic Migrants' as opposed to immigrants is actually worse for Britain because they will never put into the tax fund what they take out in services - that's the definition of a drain, it's a waste outlet - and our taxes are being flushed down a huge European one!
British people have a strong sense of fair play, so when they see people settle here and build a life, pay taxes and become part of the community - fair enough. But when we see people arriving having paid no taxes and jumping to the top of housing and hospital queues, their children getting extra lessons and taking our jobs - it's not fair - and whats more it's not a game.
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quote: Originally posted by Nick14:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by samnothappy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Musonius:
NHS waiting lists are the shortest they have been for years.
And as for bursting at the seam - the UK is only eleventh in terms of population density in islands.
Is that the best argument you can make "NHS waiting lists are the shortest they have been for years" only eleventh population density? THIS COUNTRY IS NOW BEING INVADED BY MILLIONS, YES MILLIONS OF (POOR) PEOPLE SEEKING EMPLOYMENT, HOUSING, SERVICES. Statistics about NHS waiting lists are fiddled and coloured to make the government look good - it is not reality. Ever been into a doctors waiting room - ever seen how many people are there in front of you? Also, the NHS is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the services I refer to - what about having to provide multi-lingual teaching - why should we pay to teach people from foreign countries to speak English in our country - would you do that in Poland? If you want to challenge what I have said, make it a proper challenge - not a pittiful one like that - "NHS, 11th islands." Your reply didn't even make sense. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED TO ANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY |
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quote: Originally posted by workingmum:
The end of the programme neglected to say that the only economic migrants going back to their countries of origin are: the articulate, educated, multi-skilled who will most benefit from improving eastern european economies.
The majority of migrants staying will continue to work hard .... I worry about the minority who are: not going back because they'd rather stay here to access benefits, live on the streets, commit crime...... They are a destabilising influence and will further fuel what is already an inflamed debate !
Precisely. That is why this concluding episode was disingenuous in the extreme and will fuel the multiculturalist propaganda machine so they can keep telling us not to worry when in reality they have lost control. My mother is a support assistant in a school and she can testify that the overall effect of multi-ethnic kids is that the overall quality of education goes down for all concerned and we will pay yet more for the privilege. We are not racist as a people. We just have a 42% personal tax burden and many of us just don't know how much more we can pay before we become criminals or enter the race to the bottom for more state handouts. As they say, if you can't beat em, join em. |
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quote: Originally posted by Peter N: quote: Originally posted by tony138:
I live in northeast scotland and we are being invaded by middle to upper class english the people who say open our borders its good for the economy and makes us a multi cultural society then get the hell out of dodge so they don,t have to live in it
Quite. I moved to Dundee for that reason. Although I never approved of open Borders. I'm form Bradford. Nuff said. It does make me laugh though. Been here nearly six months and most of my neighbours are upper class English twits and the hordes of volvo driving, labrador owning folk in Carnoustie are all English ex-ex pats. Sorry mate but the English colonisation of Scotland is the new Zionism. Expect us to be walling you off and cutting off your electricity by the end of the century. We screwed up our bit of the island and we've been paying for your bit for so long we feel somehow its only fair. Where else are our kids going to get a free uni education?
If you live in scotland now you should be able to see theres not a lot of your money been spent up here.Its all the scottish oil money the english have robbed to use on thenselves our council is closing our biggest swimming pool and only ice rink to save money but can still install information centres in our streets in polish |
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quote: Originally posted by workingmum:
The end of the programme neglected to say that the only economic migrants going back to their countries of origin are: the articulate, educated, multi-skilled who will most benefit from improving eastern european economies.
The majority of migrants staying will continue to work hard .... I worry about the minority who are: not going back because they'd rather stay here to access benefits, live on the streets, commit crime...... They are a destabilising influence and will further fuel what is already an inflamed debate !
I feel uncomfortable and am affected by large areas of local roads, schools, nurseries, buses, trains, hospital wards and doctors surgeries WHERE NO ENGLISH IS SPOKEN at times.
I agree that we Britons need to be better equipped to compete with a global market place and that we may in future need to "get on a plane" to find work, but as this wave of immigration has been too much, too fast, it does not stop me feeling like
a foreigner in my own country.
This is actually how I feel in London at the moment. London was pretty multicultural in nineties, and worked so well cos people where started geling. Now its just become a place to make money and go back to your home country, alot people here don't really care about the city. As a local I mourn, this place has no indentity. |
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...
to be even-handed though; there were some areas of Polish communities that were anti-semitic and openly hostile towards Jews before and after WWII[/QUOTE]
Which is of course should be 100% irrelevant to British attitudes to Polish immigration today, in the same way British Colonialism of 50 years ago and more is irrelevant to the British Immigration debate today..[/QUOTE]
So morality and ethics should go out thru the window ? I think emigration entails many other important issues apart from the economic one, it would certainly feel different for a holocaust survivor or his/her descendant to be an emmigrant in Germany to being an emmigrant in Britain. These are very important matters of the soul that mustn't be overlooked. Emigrants are not just robots neither can they turn on or off their feeling like a switch and sing Arbait macht frei. Why would anyone want to exasperate a cookoo immigrant? I think I am going mad.....
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quote: Originally posted by tony138: quote: Originally posted by Peter N: quote: Originally posted by tony138:
I live in northeast scotland and we are being invaded by middle to upper class english the people who say open our borders its good for the economy and makes us a multi cultural society then get the hell out of dodge so they don,t have to live in it
Quite. I moved to Dundee for that reason. Although I never approved of open Borders. I'm form Bradford. Nuff said. It does make me laugh though. Been here nearly six months and most of my neighbours are upper class English twits and the hordes of volvo driving, labrador owning folk in Carnoustie are all English ex-ex pats. Sorry mate but the English colonisation of Scotland is the new Zionism. Expect us to be walling you off and cutting off your electricity by the end of the century. We screwed up our bit of the island and we've been paying for your bit for so long we feel somehow its only fair. Where else are our kids going to get a free uni education?
If you live in scotland now you should be able to see theres not a lot of your money been spent up here.Its all the scottish oil money the english have robbed to use on thenselves our council is closing our biggest swimming pool and only ice rink to save money but can still install information centres in our streets in polish
Not strictly true. If you follow the diagonal border of Scotland you'll see that the majority of oil fields are in English waters. Many of the rigs and infrastructure we sent to scotland as a favour to replace the ship building industry. But then even the oil money is not enough to cover Scotland. It still needs massive subsidy form taxing the City. Scotland is one of the worst performing small countries in Europe. It's the basket case of the union, that is for sure. Dundee has just had 10m of taxpayers money to start a life sciences complex but that's largely to give something to do to all the science grads we have trained but don't need. The IT industry is over stated here and although Scottish unemployment is at a low, it's still not bulging with prospects. Thats why its only the rich gits or middle class teachers who end up in Scotland. But hey, at least we're not Islamic Jihad. If you're talking about the Olympia centre btw, that's being replaced. And not before time. it's ugly as sin. |
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quote: Originally posted by ewa_jr:
I have a question.
Why do Brtistish always portray Polish people as the ones who are after benefits, and as the above person pointed out lie about their identity.
How about those who are successful, who are at universities, wanting to build a future for themselves in this country?
Im sure a lot of Polish people will feel offended and deeply hurt by this documentry. I was...
That documentary tried so hard, so rediculously hard not to offend anyone. How can you say "feel offended"? Because of the extreme NUMBER of people coming here now, the UK residents (which include many people who were immigrants themselves, but have bbeen here for some time) are very afraid of what is happening. It is true that their jobs, their standard of living is being affected by this OPEN DOOR policy. You would feel exactly the same if you had been here for 10 years, then saw 10 million people suddenly appearing without any consultation. I recently spoke to a polish man who came hgere 7 years ago, and he's very unhappy with the current situation, so stop trying to imply that there is any racism in this - it's just about the NUMBERS. |
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Rageh Omaar looked very pleased with himself at the end of this evening's programme - as if he had all of the answers. What he failed to highlight was that the 'settled British' (of whatever original race and background) believe that the British culture is changing too rapidly and public services are under severe strain in some areas. Previously, immigrants were assimilated at a slower pace, over thousands of years, and became what is now the indigenous people of this country.
He also failed to acknowledge the decadence and increasing violence and yobbishness in British society which is a major reason that so many British people are moving out.
As for the Poles etc coming here for money and moving back home, Continental Europe abounds with British immigrants also looking for a better standard of living except that most of them will never return to their home country because of reasons mentioned above.
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quote: Originally posted by samnothappy: quote: Originally posted by ewa_jr:
I have a question.
Why do Brtistish always portray Polish people as the ones who are after benefits, and as the above person pointed out lie about their identity.
How about those who are successful, who are at universities, wanting to build a future for themselves in this country?
Im sure a lot of Polish people will feel offended and deeply hurt by this documentry. I was...
That documentary tried so hard, so rediculously hard not to offend anyone. How can you say "feel offended"? Because of the extreme NUMBER of people coming here now, the UK residents (which include many people who were immigrants themselves, but have bbeen here for some time) are very afraid of what is happening. It is true that their jobs, their standard of living is being affected by this OPEN DOOR policy. You would feel exactly the same if you had been here for 10 years, then saw 10 million people suddenly appearing without any consultation. I recently spoke to a polish man who came hgere 7 years ago, and he's very unhappy with the current situation, so stop trying to imply that there is any racism in this - it's just about the NUMBERS.
And may I add, if went to any place in the world and found the locals were such a small majority or even minority to migrants as London, I would think that something was going seriously wierd... |
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quote: Originally posted by Quinner:
Living and working in Ireland and being an Irish citizen I watched all three programs and found them fascinating.We have similar issues in Ireland at present regarding an influx of immigrants and in particular coming from Eastern Europe.
The positions taken up by the immigrants here were similar to in Britain i.e.working in hotels,restaurants,cleaners,in construction etc.
It is also discussed here quite frequently regarding the numbers coming into Ireland although the Irish themselves are scattered across many countries in Europe including the UK and huge numbers settled in the USA.
I agree with the British workers that were interviewed in the program tonight that the future is very frightening indeed.
My belief is that through the Nice and Maastrict Treaty's this allowed the enlargement of Europe for the sole purpose of large firms and small businesses to fulfil labour shortages and to keep wages in general low.
I would not consider that there has been hostility towards the influx here as we ourselves moved to other countries since the 1800's but more suspicion as to what their purpose was here and how long they are staying.
I think in fairness Ireland needed a jolt but not this kind of a jolt I have to say that the majority of Polish people I have met are quite similar in ways to the Irish and are extremely disciplined,most are pleasant and speak very good English and a number of my work colleagues are Polish.Sometimes,they are even better to work with than my own Irish colleagues.
I tend to agree with the program makers that these migrants are only here for a short while to make money and send it home.Thanks for letting me air my comments C4.Excellent program
Unfortunately, whether they settle or whether they return, the effect is still very negative for all except employers. We are the hot water and they are the cold, so we just end up with luke warm water (pay levels). If you are employed, prepare yourself for a lower standard of living, and if you're an employer you'll probably make more money. This is the improved economy the government refers to! Greed rules. |
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Never seen so many new members, one could be forgiven for wondering who's controlling what.
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quote: Originally posted by Kufah:
Rageh concluded that the effect of immigration, has not impacted on Britain the way in which Enoch Powell visualised.
But he is quite wrong. Indigenous British folk are now victims of political correctness. And every thing we say or do is scrutinised by one dept. or another. Yet we have to stand by and watch people parade around the streets of our capital city, carrying placards which call for our beheading, or our deaths. And nothing is done to stop this. Political corectness is extremely one sided, built against the very people, to which this land is their BIRTHRIGHT. Our fathers fought and died for our freedom, and this land. But now it is being given away wholesale, to foreigners who have no interest in staying here, or improving Britain.
That is one side of it.
The other side is that traditional communities are being broken up by people coming and going, and British people feel that they are being forced to leave our shores, to better themselves abroad, because they are being undercut by foreign workers.
So the Brits who leave, feel like they have no roots in Britain no more. We all need to feel rooted to something familliar. Foreign workers still have their roots in other countries. As many have said, they are only here to work, their roots lie in their homeland.
But British people feel that their homeland is being eroded, and that we no longer matter anymore. We are just cogs in a global machine. But at no time have we been asked if we wanted these changes, or if we wanted to be part of a "new world order". It is dispicable that the very people who built this country up, should be treated in this way, by money hungry business owners, and Vile politicians.
I for one am extremely angry. Britain is my HOME, and my BIRTHRIGHT, not a commodity for some self serving politicians to float on the stock market.
I would be interested to know how many other indigenous Britons felt like this.
I'm right with you to the very end. It is a disgusting example of abuse of power. We have granted (or they have assumed) far too much power to our goverment, in the name of DEMOCRACY. This is not a democracy! If a vote of that EU action was taken, I doubt it would have drawn 10% of the vote. The 10% would have been wealthy employers and business who are laughing all the way to the bank! We're tought that capitalism and democracy are the ideals, but what we are left with is greed and power abuse. Good luck. |
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samnothappy, I agree. I don't see why you are so unhappy, that was a very well structured argument. What annoys me though, and what the documentary did not really answer for me, was why were the people interviewed not putting there differences aside in unity against this terrible government? Well obviously there are other reasons, the sun being the number one selling newspaper in the country, but still the government has had too many failures it amazes me people are not marching in the streets demanding they be replaced. Democracy is something to be fought for. I'm sure we can deal with the immigration issue after that.
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quote: Originally posted by phillydun:
samnothappy, I agree. I don't see why you are so unhappy, that was a very well structured argument. What annoys me though, and what the documentary did not really answer for me, was why were the people interviewed not putting there differences aside in unity against this terrible government? Well obviously there are other reasons, the sun being the number one selling newspaper in the country, but still the government has had too many failures it amazes me people are not marching in the streets demanding they be replaced. Democracy is something to be fought for. I'm sure we can deal with the immigration issue after that.
phillydun, the problem is we are powerless against the machine. What good did the marching do about the Iraq war? Over a million people, just ignored. We (the silly voting public) have allowed this particular government to be in power far too long. They are all as bad as each other, and I have no preference - I do not trust or want any of them to govern in the way that they do, but we have no choice - we have to choose bad or bad. The only thing we can do to protect oursselves is to keep swapping them over so that they don't become too power mad, like the current lot. They feel they can ride roughshod over the people because they are the bosses and we must do what they say. They wouldn't feel that way if the silly public had not voted them in again and again - maybe they would be a bit more cautious and a little less outlandish (like the 10% tax affair)! I think that's the only defence we have, rotation every 4 years; it doesent matter which party is in - they're all incompetant, but we can't overcome the reality of being advised that "we need to be governed". There should be no political "parties" - we should vote MPs who each have a free vote, just like in a jury. The current system is like a dictatorship, with Blair or Brown or whoever getting their own way by using whips, career prospects etc. If hundreds of intelligent people (supposedly) were not able to make better democratic decisions in that manner, rather than going against their own personal beliefs to appease their "party", I'd be very surprised. My cat could do a better job, but would never get enough votes. Cheers. |
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Rageh saved the best for last. The anti immigrant lot wouldn't have liked this last episode as it quashed a lot of what they wanted to hear/beleive!
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