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quote: Originally posted by Liz**: quote: Originally posted by Geeza..:
I see, one example, do you not think you are judging a majority with your experience of a minority much like some of your comments about British people earlier?
Over an hour ago you said 'it was late'. What are you still doing here?
Sorry Liz, quite an interesting conversation so I stayed up, however I'll regret it in the morning when my alarm goes of at 06:30 tommorow. I'm off to bed, later.  |
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Hey! Thanks for that. I might go check it out. Looks very good !
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quote: Originally posted by ada111: quote: Originally posted by Geeza..: quote: Originally posted by ada111: quote: Originally posted by Geeza..: quote: Originally posted by ada111:
Please ask the stuck up Poles who never traveled anywhere and who live in Poland not me. I am an emigrant and surely have a bit more open mind about these issues.
Are they stuck up because they prefer to stay in their country, work hard and put food on the table for their family? 
Its because they fear anything that is slightly different. I know a person who changed class for her child at school because one (!) Gipsy child was admitted to that class. That is how stuck up they are there and that is why I do not want to live there or to have anything to do with this kind of emotionally cruel people.
I see, one example, do you not think you are judging a majority with your experience of a minority much like some of your comments about British people earlier?
We are from different worlds, I cannot understand your way of thinking.
I've lived and worked in other countries, I look at things with an open mind and try to empathise with people. Try it some time.  |
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Well I'm pleased to hear. I have been to a few in the past and they have a real good atmosphere which makes me very pleased to be living in this country. And of course the great man Tony Benn is making a speech.
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I do wonder, can anyone tell me, what exactly is British identity?
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quote: Originally posted by phillydun:
Well I'm pleased to hear. I have been to a few in the past and they have a real good atmosphere which makes me very pleased to be living in this country. And of course the great man Tony Benn is making a speech.
I am going to see Tony Benn on Thursday. If you get the oportunity phillydun, ask him about Enoch Powell, i think you may be surprised, and see that Geeza was not completely wrong. |
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quote: Originally posted by ada111: quote: Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Hey all you! Leave us Poles alone. Suddenly you have re-discovered that you have an influx of immigration what's a very old issue here and now you exercise debates about immigration at our moral cost (not yours obviously!!!) claiming that it's better to discuss it openly. Such is the great freedom of Brits to always complain about every possible nation on this planet! Why haven't you performed such an open-discussion experiment on some other nation a long time ago? The truth is immigration has always been let here to boost the economy and when things turn sour immigrants are here always first to blame instead of the government for the poor housing and health-wise planning! You have larger numbers of Brits leaving this country and yet you are short of accommodation. Not mentioning your housing wasn't turned into ruins during the WWII! First you open your borders, people change their whole lives to settle down here and then you create such an atmosphere that one feels on a downer all the time, then you say to us "go home". Yet, you all are so condescending, you really think we all are plumbers and some navvy stuff! Good grief! How this all is mistaken - perhaps cos you're to scarred and prejudiced to speak to us so to find out on your own once you spot us on streets. And yet, crap media just gives you such a fast-food coverages that are no better than all this shambles going-on in tabloids. You don't even know how many of us were attracted to this country by your media broadcasting apparently an overly idyllic and idealised portray of this country. Though, this is in this pseudo-proud British nature to always boast around the world, make mistakes and point fingers at the others. OK, enough of venting my outrage out for today! Tomorrow better day will come hopefully for all of you and us.
Hey Piotrek, how have you been. As you see I got myself into another rumble instigated by anti-polonists. I just wonder when will it end...
Excuse me, I am not anti-polish. I don't hate polish people at all. I've said all my post that I'm against a policy of high immigration which leaves local communities almost as minorities in the space of 10 years. I blame the policy, not the immigrants. I think the thirst for working travelling ought to met by other cities in the world becoming "global village", not just London. This would take the pressure from London and deliver a more equal spread of migrants across the world. I've even met migrants, who believe that the ratio of locals to migrants in London is too high, really want to meet British people. Well I'm sorry mate, there aren't enough of us around. Ada - you need to have more respect for us Brits. We opened have our borders to EU migration along time before other countries in the EU. We provide translators in legal situations. We give all migrants immediate access to free NHS and eduction (if they have kids etc.) without paying anything in. We are extremely tolerant and fair. In comparison I've been to other countries where the presence of even one foreign worker within an office has caused taunting etc. |
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Ada, hi. Yeah, am OK overall, and yourself? It's just these blooming debates drive me bonkers. I literally cannot pass by indifferently. In a nutshell, I would say the Polish nature is to get along with life and avoid pointless discussions. The downside of this approach here is that many of indigenous folks have got used to our quiet ways and now they simply try to turn us into doormats while exercising their liberties :/ Any time I turn either a radio or telly they say some condescending stuff about us. I reckon they have referred to us as plumbers and so on and so forth dozens of times so far. When I pick up a newspaper, it's all the same, when I do some googling - the same, when speak to any random lot - the same. It's now like a recurring murky slumber! Erm, yeah, if I dislike it, I can always bugger of home like advised every so often, right? )) Londoner1101, sorry if you felt being subsumed under one category. I know some Brits wish us well and appreciate it. Generally, negative stuff here is addressed to all these people who come up with sort of very dismissive touch to us. Bigberther, am happy whatever will happen (according to the law) as long as the authorities, media and local folks will stop turning our lives into misery. I feel situated between the devil and the deep blue sea all the time - a sort of modern and widely accepted form of bullying us. I don't mind sharing so-called British values and identity. Loads of us fancy integrating, though it's hard to do so while being invariantly rejected. It's like yourselves - try to make your way somewhere you're unwelcome - pretty hard, isn't it? People usually don't make a distinction amongst a real person and stereotypes. Why bother, right? To those who may wonder the majority of us Poles come here to earn a better dough. Check what wages let's say Tescos pay us back in Poland? Whose brand is that? Erm, isn't it British? No figure people prefer coming over here. Also, does it affect our let's say local parsley mongers or grocer's shops somewhat? What about British landlords inflating the prices of accommodation in Poland? When you put limits on immigration, don't forget to put some limits on them as well. 2.5K quid per a square meter seem to me a lot. This is just a couple of notorious examples, though I apprehend there are pros and cons in it. At least you've made an atonement and also exported to Poland two superb musicians like Nigel Kennedy and John Porter. See, I've vented it all out again and am getting vitriolic now! :/ Ada had a valid premonition this debate could instigate counter-productive neurosis in case of immigrants, see? Will have to find myself now a nice dishy British lass. Erm, am not a Frenchman though. Does it mean my chances have just plunged by 99.9999%? )) Oh well, will go for an NHS prescribed prozac then to cheer myself up and lock up tightly in a pot council house living off a bountiful dole. As to my car, instead of a tax-ring, I'll stick there a greasy coco-doughnut! Remember, when you spot it somewhere by a windscreen, spread the gossip that you saw this uninsured car of this nutty lad from Poland. |
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quote: Originally posted by bigberther: quote: Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Hey all you! Leave us Poles alone. Suddenly you have re-discovered that you have an influx of immigration what's a very old issue here and now you exercise debates about immigration at our moral cost (not yours obviously!!!) claiming that it's better to discuss it openly. Such is the great freedom of Brits to always complain about every possible nation on this planet! Why haven't you performed such an open-discussion experiment on some other nation a long time ago? The truth is immigration has always been let here to boost the economy and when things turn sour immigrants are here always first to blame instead of the government for the poor housing and health-wise planning! You have larger numbers of Brits leaving this country and yet you are short of accommodation. Not mentioning your housing wasn't turned into ruins during the WWII! First you open your borders, people change their whole lives to settle down here and then you create such an atmosphere that one feels on a downer all the time, then you say to us "go home". Yet, you all are so condescending, you really think we all are plumbers and some navvy stuff! Good grief! How this all is mistaken - perhaps cos you're to scarred and prejudiced to speak to us so to find out on your own once you spot us on streets. And yet, crap media just gives you such a fast-food coverages that are no better than all this shambles going-on in tabloids. You don't even know how many of us were attracted to this country by your media broadcasting apparently an overly idyllic and idealised portray of this country. Though, this is in this pseudo-proud British nature to always boast around the world, make mistakes and point fingers at the others. OK, enough of venting my outrage out for today! Tomorrow better day will come hopefully for all of you and us.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I got the impression that people are pointing the finger at all immigrants not just the polish, and it's not that we want people who have settled here to go home (well I don't) but we feel it's time the government put a limit on how many should enter the Country. I'm proud to be British but if something isnt done soon we are in danger of losing our identity IMO and that's what worries me.
I think the polish have the misfortune of immigrating to Britain at the end of a consistant period of high immigration to Britain over 30 years, so much so that their additional numbers to the migrant pool have tilted the balance of a fair and sustainable local:migrant ratio, to a ratio that is unfair to towards the locals. If in a hypothetical situation the Polish had emigrated in the 70's, and the current immigration was focused on people from Mexico, I think the current debate would be around immigration from Mexico etc. |
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quote: Originally posted by phillydun: quote: Originally posted by workingmum: quote: Originally posted by workingmum:
The end of the programme neglected to say that the only economic migrants going back to their countries of origin are: the articulate, educated, multi-skilled who will most benefit from improving eastern european economies.
The majority of migrants staying will continue to work hard .... I worry about the minority who are: not going back because they'd rather stay here to access benefits, live on the streets, commit crime...... They are a destabilising influence and will further fuel what is already an inflamed debate !
I feel uncomfortable and am affected by large areas of local roads, schools, nurseries, buses, trains, hospital wards and doctors surgeries WHERE NO ENGLISH IS SPOKEN at times.
I agree that we Britons need to be better equipped to compete with a global market place and that we may in future need to "get on a plane" to find work, but as this wave of immigration has been too much, too fast, it does not stop me feeling like
a foreigner in my own country.
a foreigner in my own country - is something I can not realte too. Where do you live?
Ealing, West London |
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quote: Originally posted by cazie5:
Britain "should" be, first & formost for "Native" British. Immigration is destroying our culture & heritage. How many Church of England establishments exist in the middle east ?
It doesn't happen, because visitors respect the native cultures & beliefs and adhere to the laws of the land as laid down by the particular country. We are being force fed foreign beliefs & religions, therefore British heritage is being diluted due a weak minded government who won't say enough is enough.
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quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by cazie5:
Britain "should" be, first & formost for "Native" British. Immigration is destroying our culture & heritage. How many Church of England establishments exist in the middle east ?
It doesn't happen, because visitors respect the native cultures & beliefs and adhere to the laws of the land as laid down by the particular country. We are being force fed foreign beliefs & religions, therefore British heritage is being diluted due a weak minded government who won't say enough is enough.
Personally, I like what other countries have to teach us. Take the GCC states of the Middle East. By law you can work there. You are paid less than local citizens. You have far less rights. At the end of your period of work you MUST go home. You NEVER acquire citizenship rights. Your workpermit can be removed if you commit even a small infringment of the law, and then you are immediately removed. You are now entitled to use local services without (your employer) paying extra for them. You are certainly not allowed to subvert local culture and religious practice. The rules are different if you are a GCC citizen (so it coud apply to the EU) All of this sounds VERY sensible to me. I think we should adopt it too. It would go a long way to solving manyt of our problems. |
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quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by cazie5:
Britain "should" be, first & formost for "Native" British. Immigration is destroying our culture & heritage. How many Church of England establishments exist in the middle east ?
It doesn't happen, because visitors respect the native cultures & beliefs and adhere to the laws of the land as laid down by the particular country. We are being force fed foreign beliefs & religions, therefore British heritage is being diluted due a weak minded government who won't say enough is enough.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. My son lives and works in the middle east for the very same reasons the immigrants come to this country, better money and a better life style, however he adheres to their rules and their laws, he's a foreigner who appreciates the fact this country has offered him something he would never have achieved in Britain. |
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quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by cazie5:
Britain "should" be, first & formost for "Native" British. Immigration is destroying our culture & heritage. How many Church of England establishments exist in the middle east ?
It doesn't happen, because visitors respect the native cultures & beliefs and adhere to the laws of the land as laid down by the particular country. We are being force fed foreign beliefs & religions, therefore British heritage is being diluted due a weak minded government who won't say enough is enough.
Personally, I like what other countries have to teach us. Take the GCC states of the Middle East. By law you can work there. You are paid less than local citizens. You have far less rights. At the end of your period of work you MUST go home. You NEVER acquire citizenship rights. Your workpermit can be removed if you commit even a small infringment of the law, and then you are immediately removed. You are now entitled to use local services without (your employer) paying extra for them. You are certainly not allowed to subvert local culture and religious practice. The rules are different if you are a GCC citizen (so it coud apply to the EU) All of this sounds VERY sensible to me. I think we should adopt it too. It would go a long way to solving manyt of our problems.
This is what really annoys me. We should not adopt the attitudes of gulf states to migrants. However migrants in Britain ought to respect our tolerance and fairness in respect free NHS, same rights, translators, usually equal oppurtunities on the job market etc. In other countries you are made to feel very much like a foreigner and are always put in the second pile in the job market. |
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quote: Originally posted by Londoner1001: quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by Grahamjt: quote: Originally posted by cazie5:
Britain "should" be, first & formost for "Native" British. Immigration is destroying our culture & heritage. How many Church of England establishments exist in the middle east ?
It doesn't happen, because visitors respect the native cultures & beliefs and adhere to the laws of the land as laid down by the particular country. We are being force fed foreign beliefs & religions, therefore British heritage is being diluted due a weak minded government who won't say enough is enough.
Personally, I like what other countries have to teach us. Take the GCC states of the Middle East. By law you can work there. You are paid less than local citizens. You have far less rights. At the end of your period of work you MUST go home. You NEVER acquire citizenship rights. Your workpermit can be removed if you commit even a small infringment of the law, and then you are immediately removed. You are now entitled to use local services without (your employer) paying extra for them. You are certainly not allowed to subvert local culture and religious practice. The rules are different if you are a GCC citizen (so it coud apply to the EU) All of this sounds VERY sensible to me. I think we should adopt it too. It would go a long way to solving manyt of our problems.
This is what really annoys me. We should not adopt the attitudes of gulf states to migrants. However migrants in Britain ought to respect our tolerance and fairness in respect free NHS, same rights, translators, usually equal oppurtunities on the job market etc. In other countries you are made to feel very much like a foreigner and are always put in the second pile in the job market.
@Londoner1001 Your second paragraph looks awfully as if your are agreeing with it (and me). As well as that, in Gulf States citizens are quite rightly, always given preferential treatment over everyone else for almost everything. Try working there, and you'll find out. |
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How would you feel if it was your ancestors who came here in the 1930 who encounter such unwelcome treatment? Aren't you a bit of a hypocrite. And , oh yes , as to your previous confession and accusation of Polish anti-semitism in the 30s I think it DOES make you biased. You just simply taking it out on Poles for what your family might have experienced in the rural Poland. Well, good that they emigrated from Poland as the 40s was a real mayhem during the German occupation so your grandparents were very lucky. Mine were not so lucky. I can relate to a pride of being from one place on earth though. I am an ABORIGINAL VARSAWIAN, and yes my grandma says there is only 5% of us left and the rest are just newcomers and peasants etc. and yes that is a fashist thing to say. She is guarding the Warsaw identity : gutsy, clever, tolerant but discriminating of what is a real quality and what is not, communicative, freedom loving. But that is not a way to go forward and she is perfectly aware of that and if there was no "peasants' coming to Warsaw after the war to help build the city again Warsaw would still be in ruins. I do not think you have a real and true picture of Polish immigration into Britain or should I say to London , I have been living in London for 15 years now and I think that your description of Polish crowds going through the city are exaggerated.
Anyway what would you say be an identity of Londoner?
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quote: Originally posted by Flanker: quote: Originally posted by Overlay:
The human race has always moved to where the resources are.
Yes but previously Governments, States , Tribes, sought to protect the interests of their people from the people who wanted what they had built. Not the British state, who seem to be colluding with 'interests' to disenfranchise their own people. Is this the first time in history when a state has gone out of its way to attack the whole of its population?
'attack' is a little strong. What i mean is if you look at recent history we're all part viking, saxon, roman, norman, celt, whatever. England used to extend to the Loire valley and we used to speak French. Take a longer view and humanity started in the Rift valley in Africa so our ancestors must have moved from there for survival reasons. My concern with immigration is more to do about whether it's good for the economy and whether it's good for social cohesion. 'Britishness' is such a relative term it's a joke. |
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quote: Originally posted by Piotr/Peter: Ada, hi. Yeah, am OK overall, and yourself? It's just these blooming debates drive me bonkers. I literally cannot pass by indifferently. In a nutshell, I would say the Polish nature is to get along with life and avoid pointless discussions. The downside of this approach here is that many of indigenous folks have got used to our quiet ways and now they simply try to turn us into doormats while exercising their liberties :/ Any time I turn either a radio or telly they say some condescending stuff about us. I reckon they have referred to us as plumbers and so on and so forth dozens of times so far. When I pick up a newspaper, it's all the same, when I do some googling - the same, when speak to any random lot - the same. It's now like a recurring murky slumber! Erm, yeah, if I dislike it, I can always bugger of home like advised every so often, right? )) Londoner1101, sorry if you felt being subsumed under one category. I know some Brits wish us well and appreciate it. Generally, negative stuff here is addressed to all these people who come up with sort of very dismissive touch to us. Bigberther, am happy whatever will happen (according to the law) as long as the authorities, media and local folks will stop turning our lives into misery. I feel situated between the devil and the deep blue sea all the time - a sort of modern and widely accepted form of bullying us. I don't mind sharing so-called British values and identity. Loads of us fancy integrating, though it's hard to do so while being invariantly rejected. It's like yourselves - try to make your way somewhere you're unwelcome - pretty hard, isn't it? People usually don't make a distinction amongst a real person and stereotypes. Why bother, right? To those who may wonder the majority of us Poles come here to earn a better dough. Check what wages let's say Tescos pay us back in Poland? Whose brand is that? Erm, isn't it British? No figure people prefer coming over here. Also, does it affect our let's say local parsley mongers or grocer's shops somewhat? What about British landlords inflating the prices of accommodation in Poland? When you put limits on immigration, don't forget to put some limits on them as well. 2.5K quid per a square meter seem to me a lot. This is just a couple of notorious examples, though I apprehend there are pros and cons in it. At least you've made an atonement and also exported to Poland two superb musicians like Nigel Kennedy and John Porter. See, I've vented it all out again and am getting vitriolic now! :/ Ada had a valid premonition this debate could instigate counter-productive neurosis in case of immigrants, see? Will have to find myself now a nice dishy British lass. Erm, am not a Frenchman though. Does it mean my chances have just plunged by 99.9999%? )) Oh well, will go for an NHS prescribed prozac then to cheer myself up and lock up tightly in a pot council house living off a bountiful dole. As to my car, instead of a tax-ring, I'll stick there a greasy coco-doughnut! Remember, when you spot it somewhere by a windscreen, spread the gossip that you saw this uninsured car of this nutty lad from Poland.
Hey Piotrek, nice to hear from you. Thanks for informative posts. I will be on the look out for that car with a greasy coco-doghnut. Will you be driving through Islington?  I, on my part have just decided to ditch the idea of using that Estate Agent. I am going put out my own advert outside my flat, it is going to have a logo of Polish folk dancers. Hope it is legal... |
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quote: Originally posted by ada111: quote: Originally posted by Piotr/Peter: Ada, hi. Yeah, am OK overall, and yourself? It's just these blooming debates drive me bonkers. I literally cannot pass by indifferently. In a nutshell, I would say the Polish nature is to get along with life and avoid pointless discussions. The downside of this approach here is that many of indigenous folks have got used to our quiet ways and now they simply try to turn us into doormats while exercising their liberties :/ Any time I turn either a radio or telly they say some condescending stuff about us. I reckon they have referred to us as plumbers and so on and so forth dozens of times so far. When I pick up a newspaper, it's all the same, when I do some googling - the same, when speak to any random lot - the same. It's now like a recurring murky slumber! Erm, yeah, if I dislike it, I can always bugger of home like advised every so often, right? )) Londoner1101, sorry if you felt being subsumed under one category. I know some Brits wish us well and appreciate it. Generally, negative stuff here is addressed to all these people who come up with sort of very dismissive touch to us. Bigberther, am happy whatever will happen (according to the law) as long as the authorities, media and local folks will stop turning our lives into misery. I feel situated between the devil and the deep blue sea all the time - a sort of modern and widely accepted form of bullying us. I don't mind sharing so-called British values and identity. Loads of us fancy integrating, though it's hard to do so while being invariantly rejected. It's like yourselves - try to make your way somewhere you're unwelcome - pretty hard, isn't it? People usually don't make a distinction amongst a real person and stereotypes. Why bother, right? To those who may wonder the majority of us Poles come here to earn a better dough. Check what wages let's say Tescos pay us back in Poland? Whose brand is that? Erm, isn't it British? No figure people prefer coming over here. Also, does it affect our let's say local parsley mongers or grocer's shops somewhat? What about British landlords inflating the prices of accommodation in Poland? When you put limits on immigration, don't forget to put some limits on them as well. 2.5K quid per a square meter seem to me a lot. This is just a couple of notorious examples, though I apprehend there are pros and cons in it. At least you've made an atonement and also exported to Poland two superb musicians like Nigel Kennedy and John Porter. See, I've vented it all out again and am getting vitriolic now! :/ Ada had a valid premonition this debate could instigate counter-productive neurosis in case of immigrants, see? Will have to find myself now a nice dishy British lass. Erm, am not a Frenchman though. Does it mean my chances have just plunged by 99.9999%? )) Oh well, will go for an NHS prescribed prozac then to cheer myself up and lock up tightly in a pot council house living off a bountiful dole. As to my car, instead of a tax-ring, I'll stick there a greasy coco-doughnut! Remember, when you spot it somewhere by a windscreen, spread the gossip that you saw this uninsured car of this nutty lad from Poland.
Hey Piotrek, nice to hear from you. Thanks for informative posts. I will be on the look out for that car with a greasy coco-doghnut. Will you be driving
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