quote:

Originally posted by ada111:
That is why we are standing up and saying enough immigration, which we have every right to say, and to say we object to being ethnically and culturally cleased by mass immigration, which is the real racism taking place here. In this we have a right as stated under artcle 15 of the UN Convention of human rights, which states everybody has a right to a nationality.

What , suddenly , after ages of immigration happening in this country?

What is British identity then? making servants from immigrants and not giving them rights to health and education? Perhaps you are longing for the Victorian times and are unable to embrace ever changing world.[/QUOTE]

"Enough immigration". Yes, suddenly, after ages of immigration into this country.

It must astound you as a recent immigrant. But its a fact.

Whilst your country was under the thumb of Russia, this country embraced all sorts of liberal nonsense. Foremost, the weak minded decision to allow unlimited migrants into this country, and to disallow (through insult and other underhand methods) a debate or vote on the issue.

Now, when people like yourself, of not dissimilar background to native Britains, have migrated to Britain in surprisingly large numbers, the debate is on. No longer is it taboo to discuss or criticise immigration. I'm sorry that you and your fellow Poles have got caught up in this.

You need to understand the whole history of recent immigration to this country. Don't take it personally.

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
Ok I will end this by giving you a philosophical imperative. One which will determine unequivocally what kind of person you are. At the base of any sense of ethical responsibility is that every single human being is intrinsically equal- and none is superior to any if terms of culture or nationality. If you don't believe that, then I have news for you- YOU ARE A RACIST. Yes, ladies and gentleman, lets just call it what it is. Economics, society, infrasructure- there all of secondary importance if you believe in the basic principle above. So, if you think that immigration is unfair to indigenous people 'cos we wis ere first' then your argument is unethical, and ignorant.

Nobody as far as I have seen is claiming any racial or cultural superiorirty, its that as an Englishman I want my nationality and culture respected in my country, just as any other nationality would want their culture respected in their country, I want no more no less than that, and no more and no less than the rights offerend under the UN Convention of Human Rights, Article 15 : EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO A NATIONALITY!

quote:

Originally posted by millicent-bystander:
That is why we are standing up and saying enough immigration, which we have every right to say, and to say we object to being ethnically and culturally cleased by mass immigration, which is the real racism taking place here. In this we have a right as stated under artcle 15 of the UN Convention of human rights, which states everybody has a right to a nationality.

As previously mentioned, all we want is to preserve our (British) nationality.
I am acceptant of all newcomers and freely accept their own, origin identities. Please extend me the same courtesy.[/QUOTE]

And how do I, an immigrant Pole and Brit, interfere in your being British? Do I impose on you that you have to eat Polish sausage? no, do I tell you to speak Polish? no, do I tell you that you have to learn Polish national dance? no, do I tell you to paint eggs for Easter? no, do I tell you to et karp in jelly with rasins ( which is actually a polish-jewish tradition) no, So what is it that I do that makes you hate me so much?

quote:

Nobody as far as I have seen is claiming any racial or cultural superiorirty, its that as an Englishman I want my nationality and culture respected in my country, just as any other nationality would want their culture respected in their country, I want no more no less than that, and no more and no less than the rights offerend under the UN Convention of Human Rights, Article 15 : EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO A NATIONALITY!

But tell me how the immigrants seel your nationality for god sake, do they destroy your museums, do they change your anthem, how your nationality sufferd from the fact that I do live here and work here. I do speak yor language naturally cause I have come here. I accept all the rules and pay the taxes, I even try to learn yor history and culture to fill in better.

quote:

Originally posted by Flanker:

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
Ok I will end this by giving you a philosophical imperative. One which will determine unequivocally what kind of person you are. At the base of any sense of ethical responsibility is that every single human being is intrinsically equal- and none is superior to any if terms of culture or nationality. If you don't believe that, then I have news for you- YOU ARE A RACIST. Yes, ladies and gentleman, lets just call it what it is. Economics, society, infrasructure- there all of secondary importance if you believe in the basic principle above. So, if you think that immigration is unfair to indigenous people 'cos we wis ere first' then your argument is unethical, and ignorant.

Nobody as far as I have seen is claiming any racial or cultural superiorirty, its that as an Englishman I want my nationality and culture respected in my country, just as any other nationality would want their culture respected in their country, I want no more no less than that, and no more and no less than the rights offerend under the UN Convention of Human Rights, Article 15 : EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO A NATIONALITY!

I should also add the UN has the Declaration on the rights of the indigenous peoples:

Article 5 – Every indigenous individual has a right to a Nationality

Article 7 - Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;
(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them


I'll take thoes rights as well, unless you are saying except English people, which would be racist.

Don't take it personally.[/QUOTE]

That is not possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Flanker:

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
Ok I will end this by giving you a philosophical imperative. One which will determine unequivocally what kind of person you are. At the base of any sense of ethical responsibility is that every single human being is intrinsically equal- and none is superior to any if terms of culture or nationality. If you don't believe that, then I have news for you- YOU ARE A RACIST. Yes, ladies and gentleman, lets just call it what it is. Economics, society, infrasructure- there all of secondary importance if you believe in the basic principle above. So, if you think that immigration is unfair to indigenous people 'cos we wis ere first' then your argument is unethical, and ignorant.

Nobody as far as I have seen is claiming any racial or cultural superiorirty, its that as an Englishman I want my nationality and culture respected in my country, just as any other nationality would want their culture respected in their country, I want no more no less than that, and no more and no less than the rights offerend under the UN Convention of Human Rights, Article 15 : EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO A NATIONALITY!

Nationalities, along with religions, are archaic and outdated concepts- face it. As soon as people start coming to terms with it, then theres more chance of us getting along. I thought the whol premise of great britain was to unite three nationalities as british- why can't it be more? Also you argument is redundant, just because immigrants come here it doesn't mean its going to make you less english.

Ada wrote:

quote:

Concern for immigration? BNP broadcast in your face every day, rivers of blood talks artificially made up in the media, unfair portrayal of Poles on every day basis, unfair salaries for Polish migrant workers in terrible conditions on strawberry fields, reducing us to nation of cleaners every day is this your idea of concern ? Oh, lets see, you don't want to hear that do you?

That's it. This has long been now an unequal struggle for us. Then you listen to some folks who faff all days long their theories about immigration cos they apparently have nothing more valuable to do. They believe they save the country just cos they hang about local shop corner with their mates and vent out. I'll tell you what - this is also the big issue the UK faces.

Tompaine wrote:

quote:

'Oh i'm not a racist like' 'But...'.

I cannot agree more! This get so on my nerves. I'd expect journalist to act noble whilst coming up with coverages. I always thought the good thing about some decent Brits was that bit of distance, being noble. Apparently, this is almost an extinct species these days - though, the question is what about parenting, why Britain hasn't brought up brighter young generation? When did you loose this? When the UK grew rich?

Arek also has pointed out the media shows just what suits just fuelling anger. We all plumbers and kitchen workers, aye? Perhaps Brits also should stand up against media distorting what they show.

Mad World said:

quote:

Economic consultancy Capital Economics claims that net immigration in 2005 was actually 400,000, rather than the official figure of 185,000.

That's what upsets me again a lot. All self-called patriots come up all the time with different figures. You have lost control, you don't know how many of us have come over, how many have got back home. Keep fuelling such emotive issues with these made up figures and await results. So foolish!

millicent-bystander wrote:

quote:

understand your frustrations, but by making comments such as " Put on your Swastika badge, etc" this will simply add fuel to an already, out of control fire.

See, the point we make here perhaps is that Jewish population was also blamed for economical problems before the WWII. We all well know how this feels like now. Thanks God it's still debate - and let keep it this way! Indigenous folks just should stop smearing every immigration related issues with the label saying "Polish"! This would help enormously to ease things.

Frankiespice wrote:

quote:

Time to educate our kids as to what career and job actually means or they too will be left behind. Or, we just opt out of Europe and continue to travel to Australia, New Zealand, and the US to work for 6 months to 6 yrs and continue to call anyone who comes here to do the same "vultures"

Well spotted. I really believe any decent debate about immigration shouldn't be detached from the issue of poorly performing education and low morales, lack of ambition amongst many of youth here. And there is answer: excellency, hard work, decent education - that should be your sword to tackle sheer numbers of immigration rather than overly secured borders! Why do you let for binge drinking, hanging about corner shops young lads with fags, knife crimes - where are their parents for God's sake?

OK, I hope I've contributed slightly more challenging thoughts to this debate!

quote:

All self-called patriots come up all the time with different figures. You have lost control, you don't know how many of us have come over, how many have got back home. Keep fuelling such emotive issues with these made up figures and await results.

Pete - you are right - government keep on coming up with different figures - they have lost control.

Which is why people are so angry at them.

quote:

Originally posted by ada111:
Don't take it personally.

That is not possible.[/QUOTE]

Why is that then?

Are you a Corporate entity, or a Government Department?

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
When I was a child I lived in an area where there was no-one from foreign descent, I didn't know anyone foreign, I wasn't taught about foreign religions or ways, I was taught about Great Britain, If a foreign teacher came in and could hardly speak english back then there would have been an outrage!
As a young child I had the pleasure of being able to roam freely out in the open to play, knowing everyone in each house for all the streets around us, there were far less cars as there was far less people,
I have three children who cannot play freely due to the dangers out there, And before you all start on me again, I am talking about the fact that more cars on the roads are dangerous, the fact that neighbourhoods are becoming places full of strangers, I Live in the same part of the country I was brought up in, and can honestly say that my town is un-recognisable, This is not soley down to immigration but mainly down to bad leadership, and frankly I'm getting bored of having to defend the fact that I would like to say I want england back the way it used to be!

The sad fact is that many a 1950s migrant who now considers himself (moreso his children and grandkids) to be british likely holds similar sentiments! This trend was set many years ago when we and others travelled to get ourselves some dosh - sometimes at the expense of others! Brits, French, Spanish, Portugese still influence far off lands in terms of culture and language. Do we now bury our heads and say we don't like the beast we've created? Or do we at least teach our kids that some world travel is going to be part of their working lives? Lets face it - the future may be better than the current situation where many girls think they're as potentially successful as Brit and boys think they're budding So, so solid X crew but end up having babies at 13 because individuality, success and life generally at this tender age is so depressing!

Thankyou BJM. Very brilliant point.

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:

quote:

Originally posted by Flanker:

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
Ok I will end this by giving you a philosophical imperative. One which will determine unequivocally what kind of person you are. At the base of any sense of ethical responsibility is that every single human being is intrinsically equal- and none is superior to any if terms of culture or nationality. If you don't believe that, then I have news for you- YOU ARE A RACIST. Yes, ladies and gentleman, lets just call it what it is. Economics, society, infrasructure- there all of secondary importance if you believe in the basic principle above. So, if you think that immigration is unfair to indigenous people 'cos we wis ere first' then your argument is unethical, and ignorant.

Nobody as far as I have seen is claiming any racial or cultural superiorirty, its that as an Englishman I want my nationality and culture respected in my country, just as any other nationality would want their culture respected in their country, I want no more no less than that, and no more and no less than the rights offerend under the UN Convention of Human Rights, Article 15 : EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO A NATIONALITY!

Nationalities, along with religions, are archaic and outdated concepts- face it. As soon as people start coming to terms with it, then theres more chance of us getting along. I thought the whol premise of great britain was to unite three nationalities as british- why can't it be more? Also you argument is redundant, just because immigrants come here it doesn't mean its going to make you less english.

No states = no democracy = no public services = no NHS = no state pensions.

I think you had better go and re think that.

Why can't there be more? Well as far as I can gather Poland hasn't asked to be part of the UK, thus having not added to our terrirory, it bit rich for Poles to come here and expect us to recognise their nationality.

Racism, racialism - hostile attitude or behaviour to members of other races, based on a belief in the innate superiority of one's own race.

A persons opinion, be it a little idealistic, is the fundemental basis of this forum. Attacking & persecuting individuals for expressing their views, opinions & beliefs was the basis of a certain Mr Hitler's movement, encouraging everyone to think the same.

quote:

Originally posted by millicent-bystander:
Racism, racialism - hostile attitude or behaviour to members of other races, based on a belief in the innate superiority of one's own race.

A persons opinion, be it a little idealistic, is the fundemental basis of this forum. Attacking & persecuting individuals for expressing their views, opinions & beliefs was the basis of a certain Mr Hitler's movement, encouraging everyone to think the same.

Your point being?

MadWorld. Though, this is also local lot responsibility to abstain from premature emotive reactions, jeering immigration at top of their voices. The only benefits from understanding these numbers should come in hand to authorities just to spread all though amongst institutions and counties accordingly. I guess wouldn't be mistaken massively saying that Poles work hard, pay taxes and authorities divert these incomes to keep on going the war rather than reinvest in infrastructure and housing market. Some flats are really ancient here! This issue has been neglected over many decades ...

quote:

just to spread all though amongst institutions

I meant dough, money

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cazie5:
When I was a child I lived in an area where there was no-one from foreign descent, I didn't know anyone foreign, I wasn't taught about foreign religions or ways, I was taught about Great Britain, If a foreign teacher came in and could hardly speak english back then there would have been an outrage!
As a young child I had the pleasure of being able to roam freely out in the open to play, knowing everyone in each house for all the streets around us, there were far less cars as there was far less people,
I have three children who cannot play freely due to the dangers out there, And before you all start on me again, I am talking about the fact that more cars on the roads are dangerous, the fact that neighbourhoods are becoming places full of strangers, I Live in the same part of the country I was brought up in, and can honestly say that my town is un-recognisable, This is not soley down to immigration but mainly down to bad leadership, and frankly I'm getting bored of having to defend the fact that I would like to say I want england back the way it used to be!

Oh give me a break. So everyones foreign, so your children can't play.yes because all foreigners are pedophiles and murderers aren't they?

______________________________________________________

Some are but hey who cares? we still let them in, and there lies the problem, we need tighter restrictions on who enters Britain, I welcome all new comers to our country if they want to work and contribute something but why should we open our shores for the dregs of society, we have enough of our own.

quote:

Originally posted by bigberther:
....but why should we open our shores for the dregs of society, we have enough of our own.

Which "dregs of society" are you talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by Transient Reveries:

quote:

Originally posted by bigberther:
....but why should we open our shores for the dregs of society, we have enough of our own.

Which "dregs of society" are you talking about?

Villains.

quote:

Originally posted by bigberther:
Villains.

...and as a percentage of the immigrant population how many are villains?