Flanker!

quote:

And Catholicism, with the influx of Poles is destabilising the balance we had between the two Christian religions, worse giving the Cardinals ideas above their station as they seek to interfere in our politics, seeking to tell Catholic minister how to vote.

Keep Poles off the issue of the religion coherence in the UK, OK? I don;t think any of us as inflicted any harm in this matter to folks here! I was brought up as a catholic, have my own point of view about these issues, don't interfere with neither Protestants, Catholic, Buddhists, Koran or other religions as long as they don't hurt people around. To all those who would gladly secularise all of people, I would say: what better values can you offer in place of these? Sinister world of economy and science? Some people need also a hope to ease their hardship. At least you cold teach your youngsters to value poetry and literature, belles-lettres, though it seems no one gives a toss about this here these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich1:

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cazie5:
When I was a child I lived in an area where there was no-one from foreign descent, I didn't know anyone foreign, I wasn't taught about foreign religions or ways, I was taught about Great Britain, If a foreign teacher came in and could hardly speak english back then there would have been an outrage!
As a young child I had the pleasure of being able to roam freely out in the open to play, knowing everyone in each house for all the streets around us, there were far less cars as there was far less people,
I have three children who cannot play freely due to the dangers out there, And before you all start on me again, I am talking about the fact that more cars on the roads are dangerous, the fact that neighbourhoods are becoming places full of strangers, I Live in the same part of the country I was brought up in, and can honestly say that my town is un-recognisable, This is not soley down to immigration but mainly down to bad leadership, and frankly I'm getting bored of having to defend the fact that I would like to say I want england back the way it used to be!

Tompaine
I to want England back as it was. What I mean to say is what I want to bring back is a sence of community and community spirit. I believe that this has been lost because we don't understand each other anymore. Immigration is not to blame for this, but the fragmentation of the community itself. WE can live together but to do so we have to learn about and respect each other in terms of culture and dare I say it religion and tradition. What separates us and forces our children to grow up with no understanding of culture and tradition is because children from some cultures and religious backgrounds walk out of class whenever we talk about any religion or culture that isn't their own. In doing so fail to understand who we are and preventing us from understanding them.

we all should what ever background, race religion or culture try to understand and to do so break down barriers. Only in doing so will we bring back a sence of community.

May be one day we will be able to let our kids out to play safe in knowledge that our neibours are looking out for them as they once did for us.

Yes we were a country where opinions were the important issue, where politics were about a division of ideas, now after mass immigration it has become the politics of tribalism, as one racial group/culture after another seeks to gain elbow room, and I hate it.

Cazie5 can all have all the opinions they like. But they have also, rather pointedly, not backed up any of their opinions at all so a big question of whether their opinion is actually correct hangs over them.

Should I accept someone has a valid opinion if they declare that the world is flat? Of course, I would require evidence to back that assertion up.[/QUOTE]

Are you looking at this from an intellectual perspective ?
Not all opinions need reinforcing with evidence of existence. It's based on personal belief.

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Flanker!

quote:

And Catholicism, with the influx of Poles is destabilising the balance we had between the two Christian religions, worse giving the Cardinals ideas above their station as they seek to interfere in our politics, seeking to tell Catholic minister how to vote.

Keep Poles off the issue of the religion coherence in the UK, OK? I don;t think any of us as inflicted any harm in this matter to folks here! I was brought up as a catholic, have my own point of view about these issues, don't interfere with neither Protestants, Catholic, Buddhists, Koran or other religions as long as they don't hurt people around. To all those who would gladly secularise all of people, I would say: what better values can you offer in place of these? Sinister world of economy and science? Some people need also a hope to ease their hardship. At least you cold teach your youngsters to value poetry and literature, belles-lettres, though it seems no one gives a toss about this here these days.

Fristly I believe, per head, we are the biggest newspaper buying, book writing, book buying country in the world.

But as to your religion, fine if you keep it to yourself, unfortunately the Catholic Cardinals aren't any more, and even with the Northern Ireland as a lesson, they are now seeking to meddle in our politics. They would be wise to keep their noses out, for if they sart seeking to get Catholic MP's to vote according to their wises, the religious peace will very rapidly become a sectarian divide.

Flanker wrote:

quote:

Of course there is , you have a points system like Australia.

And therefore I haven't immigrated to Australia although I could fit in there well. For well-educated professional like myself it would be just a humiliation that I wouldn't sign myself up for! It's enough I had to get a visa to the USA so to get to Mexico and will never forget how this blooming procedure of theirs is humiliating for foreigners. Keep moaning about Poles here and be sure many of well-educated contributing Poles will leave the UK. You'll stay here with just our plumbers who anyway are also very hard working, lol. Then at least your media will be saying the sheer truth!

Flanker wrote:

quote:

Fristly I believe, per head, we are the biggest newspaper buying, book writing, book buying country in the world.

I'm afraid am more aware of such masterpieces like all stuff wrote by Joyce, Blake, Proust, Cortazar, Marquez, Nietzsche and many others than the youth here ever will be. OK, this may sound snotty-noted, though having come in here I really expected great cultural life that I would thrive on. Oh! How much I was mistaken!

quote:

But as to your religion, fine if you keep it to yourself, unfortunately the Catholic Cardinals aren't any more, and even with the Northern Ireland as a lesson, they are now seeking to meddle in our politics.

That's nothing new that religions including Catholic Church are into politics too some extent. I'm not bothered personally. Their impact has been weaken long time ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

quote:

But as to your religion, fine if you keep it to yourself, unfortunately the Catholic Cardinals aren't any more, and even with the Northern Ireland as a lesson, they are now seeking to meddle in our politics.

That's nothing new that religions including Catholic Church are into politics too some extent. I'm not bothered personally. Their impact has been weaken long time ago.

Not here they haven't, we fought long and hard to keep them out, we have no wish to see them gain a foot hold in our politics because of mass immigration.

But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.

quote:

Originally posted by millicent-bystander:
Are you looking at this from an intellectual perspective ?

Oh yes. Are you?

quote:

Not all opinions need reinforcing with evidence of existence. It's based on personal belief.

But you've got to be clear what are opinions and what "facts" are. Cazie 5 has made a number of statements of fact without, having being asked, to back those facts up with evidence.

Flanker wrote:

quote:

But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.

To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Transient Reveries:

quote:

Originally posted by millicent-bystander:
Are you looking at this from an intellectual perspective ?

Oh yes. Are you?

quote:

Not all opinions need reinforcing with evidence of existence. It's based on personal belief.

But you've got to be clear what are opinions and what "facts" are. Cazie 5 has made a number of statements of fact without, having being asked, to back those facts up with evidence.

Which statements of facts were these exactly, I thought I was just giving my opinion? that's all.

please please stop with the personal attacks. Everyone has a right to freedom of speach, and to an opinion. What ever our own personal perception, however it was arrived at, it is our opinion and therefor our own personal truth.

WE also have the right to accept or not the opinion of any individual or group.

Can we not have a reasonable debate without the need for an academic or scientific evidence base, but based on the prinsipal of mutual respect.

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
Which statements of facts were these exactly, I thought I was just giving my opinion? that's all.

Your statement of fact;

quote:

"The issue is with the "volume" of people flooding into the UK, with the sole intent to bleed us dry."

I asked you to back up your assertion that the current volume of people are flooding here to bleed us dry.

I'm still waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich1:
please please stop with the personal attacks. Everyone has a right to freedom of speach, and to an opinion. What ever our own personal perception, however it was arrived at, it is our opinion and therefor our own personal truth.

WE also have the right to accept or not the opinion of any individual or group.

Can we not have a reasonable debate without the need for an academic or scientific evidence base, but based on the prinsipal of mutual respect.

Spot on dude !!

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Flanker wrote:

quote:

But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.

To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?

No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.

quote:

Originally posted by Transient Reveries:

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
Which statements of facts were these exactly, I thought I was just giving my opinion? that's all.

Your statement of fact;

quote:

"The issue is with the "volume" of people flooding into the UK, with the sole intent to bleed us dry."

I asked you to back up your assertion that the current volume of people are flooding here to bleed us dry.

I'm still waiting.

Well £1 billion is repatirated by Indian to India from here, and I believe the Polish ambassador said that between £60-100 million is being repatirated by Poles every week, and that's just two countries.

quote:

Originally posted by Transient Reveries:

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
Which statements of facts were these exactly, I thought I was just giving my opinion? that's all.

Your statement of fact;

quote:

"The issue is with the "volume" of people flooding into the UK, with the sole intent to bleed us dry."

I asked you to back up your assertion that the current volume of people are flooding here to bleed us dry.

I'm still waiting.

To interject, I do not think that this was intended as an assertion, but as a comment in reflection of current news stories and indeed, the very programme that sparked this debate. If you read the postings of Cazie5, nothing is really factually based, purely opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by millicent-bystander:
To interject, I do not think that this was intended as an assertion, but as a comment in reflection of current news stories and indeed, the very programme that sparked this debate. If you read the postings of Cazie5, nothing is really factually based, purely opinion.

Er no - what was said was not opinion. The sentence was prefaced with I believe/understand. Even so, because I have evidence to contrary, I'd like to know on what basis this opinion comes from.

You do know that their is report, written by the IPPR, that this programme was based on. It completely disproves the assertion that immigrants come here to "bleed us dry".

But hey let's not let facts get in the way of opinions!

ps it is extremely dangerous to take a few news stories and then extrapolate it to all immigrants bar the Poles!

Tompaine, you have just lost any credibility (not that you had much to start with) you had on this topic.

We are ALL (every one of us, including yourself) giving our opinions - and the fact that you resort to attempting to deny someone the right to express that opinion, simply because you disagree with it, says a lot more about you than the person you directed your offensive comments to.

quote:

Originally posted by Transient Reveries:

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
Which statements of facts were these exactly, I thought I was just giving my opinion? that's all.

Your statement of fact;

quote:

"The issue is with the "volume" of people flooding into the UK, with the sole intent to bleed us dry."

I asked you to back up your assertion that the current volume of people are flooding here to bleed us dry.

I'm still waiting.

Yes, and I'm waiting for people to debate properly. Accept that not every statement is capable of being backed up by a link from wikipedia or wherever.

That anyone coming on here is allowed an opinion, and is capable of reporting from their own experience.

Not everything can be produced, rubber stamped by a Guardian journalist.

quote:

Originally posted by cazie5:
Exactly right, purely opinion based, is that not allowed?

It's pretty stupid to have a belief that is contradicted by the evidence provided for this programme!

quote:

I am now going to end my time on here as I feel un-justly attacked for having the confidence to speak up.

Cheerio

quote:

All the people who have resorted to personal abuse have soley confirmed to me that is not the true British that are racist, it is the immigrants.

Great one. How have you worked out the nationality of all those that disagree with you on here.

For the record I'm a white Brit!

There was a time when a minority of British people said that if immigrants did not like the UK then they could always leave - this is obviously small minded and offensive. However, for Rageh Omar to suggest in his conclusion of part 3 that if the British born population did not like the UK anymore, then they could always get on a plane to another country is outrageous and equally if not more offensive.
To get a healthy and sustainable community, just look at successfull immigration policies of other countries such as New Zealand, Australia, the Carribean etc - limit numbers and professions to requirements, a confirmed job offer is a requirement of entry, operate a points system, in many Caribbean countries jobs are only offered to none nationals where it is proven that the post cannot be filled by a national, the post is readvertised every year or so to enable nationals to apply for the post etc etc. An open door, uncontroled and unrestricted policy that the UK operates is unhealthy and chaotic and encourages an unstable floating population with differing expectations. This is unstable for all sectors of the community. Rageh Omar missed the big picture with a misguided and weak conclusion. Better solutions exist for everyone, but unfortuneately not in the UK.