Originally posted by Anonimouse: I love the irony of Tom Paine promoting the notion of the capitalist exploitation of labour!
That's all this is - an economic migration and re-migration. The problem with it is not racial but social. A country that has an economy built on credit and retail has no facility to cope with mass immigration. It has no infrastructure to support economic migrants once the jobs dry up and the migrants are entitled to demand the same benefit structure as everyone else.
If you think about it very few migrants could actually contribute more than they take from the UK in such circumstances especially if they have a family.
We are not so different in this respect to other nations that have had similar rapid migrations. West Germany suffered similarly in the 1980s and Germany as a whole since the fall of the Wall - hence the not very much publicised resurrection of the Right in that country. Is it coincidence that France too has seen a resurgence of right wing feelings? I think not.
The price of opening the borders deliberately or by default is simply too high and in the long term is not going to benefit anyone.
Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately for them, Hume & co did not have to come forth with political theories in a pan-capitalist world.
Of course it racial. Don't be so naive, and don't think for second I promote capitalism; yet the predominance of the people that post on these debates do so to propagate their vile little opinions. That was the intial reason I logged onto this debate- I knew this is what i would find. I the only reason you care about rapid migration- is that you have some sentimental feelings of some non-existent british identity.
I am sure the real Tom Paine was neither patronising nor condescending. By what right do you presume to know what feelings people have?
My argument holds water no matter what nationality immigrants are. If the situation was hypothetically that a large percentage of Australian folk decided they had more chance of making a living in London the effect would be the same as if Poles or Ugandans or anyone else did it.
There would eventually be a meltdown of the credit economy and the new immigrants would be a burden n the state. This is without the pressure that mass immigration places on social services per se. The only other issue that you could consider racial is the language problem and its remedy in education.
There are other views than your own narrow perspective or labelling all who disagree with you as racist. Tom Paine would have hated to be thought of as an infallible or worse, a god.
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
OK, I see we are clearly poles part as to our world views. I bet the global world culture is enough mature to start overcoming these at least partially artificial divisions amongst nations. You have to bear in mind what causes problems - well .. large differences that we let linger such a long time. The longer you avoid facing and tackling it, the more these differences come as a surprise. Take an example of Poland. After WWII Churchill and Roosevelt didn't have guts to say no to Stalin with respect to Poland being under their influence. This is the cause of 50 years of imposed on us division from Europe. Now, suddenly it comes to Brits as a surprise that we are catching up on these differences, also that we could come across challenging work-wise, education-wise, etc. Well, when the problem started? Along with the division! The longer you let it linger for any reason (fear, economy, etc) the more it hits your back later on, right?
Fair comment, but it is that very problem here in the UK. No-one has the guts to say enough. Lets sort out our current immigration issue, but while we do it, regulate (Not stop)the flow of newcomers, until a half descent solution can be found to appease all concerned.
Fair comment, but it is that very problem here in the UK. No-one has the guts to say enough. Lets sort out our current immigration issue, but while we do it, regulate (Not stop)the flow of newcomers, until a half descent solution can be found to appease all concerned.
This is not a question of saying enough is enough. Anybody can say this! I mean I say enough against your 'enough is enough!". That's the most passive way to tackle this. As I told earlier - instead of securing your borders and coming up with condescending point systems for immigrants, educate your children so they were given a fair chance to withstand challenges and competition these days. In the contemporary world this isn't plausible to lock yourselves up tightly, this isn't shrewd nor long-term smart move. I'm saying again! Stop to binge drinking and hanging about, POETS days. The ayes to the education, excellence and hard work! OK, am forgetting some of you just have one objective - to be bubbly
You lot should be ashamed - why go against each other? This country is in a mess because of this government not the immigrants coming in - many of our civil liberties have been lost to 'protect' us - I'm not asking you to riot or go on huge protests - I'm asking you to get mad, be mad - They should not get away with this and it is up to us - black white Asian polish whatever - to go out there and demand our rights back - don't waste your time on issues that just waste your time - don't be so foolish
Originally posted by phillydun: You lot should be ashamed - why go against each other? This country is in a mess because of this government not the immigrants coming in - many of our civil liberties have been lost to 'protect' us - I'm not asking you to riot or go on huge protests - I'm asking you to get mad, be mad - They should not get away with this and it is up to us - black white Asian polish whatever - to go out there and demand our rights back - don't waste your time on issues that just waste your time - don't be so foolish
Agreed, but politians are notorious for not listening, not caring and doing what best suits them. Yes we should "all" stand together and end this madness.
The people who get paid to keep an eye on immigration couldn't answer that question but one is one to many.
Listnen, am against villains , though as I said before - you cannot have just admirable good immigrants. Look how much mess British thugs do all the time overseas. One is the whole one too many, though how would you filter them out - don't be this naive! How old are you for God's sake. Do you know the old adage: the only ones who aren't even mistaken are those who do nothing. Now apply it to upsides and downsides of immigration. You cannot have upsides without downsides, right? Unless you close down your borders, announce curfew and shoot on sight How great step forward this would be!
Fristly I believe, per head, we are the biggest newspaper buying, book writing, book buying country in the world.
I'm afraid am more aware of such masterpieces like all stuff wrote by Joyce, Blake, Proust, Cortazar, Marquez, Nietzsche and many others than the youth here ever will be. OK, this may sound snotty-noted, though having come in here I really expected great cultural life that I would thrive on. Oh! How much I was mistaken!
You weren't. I am 20, I have read all those authors/poets - sorry - but maybe you are hanging out with the wrong people!
Originally posted by cazie5: Once again, and frankly I am getting fed up with this, I am personally attacked for my opinion. I have said before and I'll say again, I do not know a single person who wants this 'amount of immigration!' It is openly discussed behind closed doors of peoples homes or work places where we feel safe to speak out, and that is exactly part of the problem we are facing, that we cannot speak out without fear of being personally attacked, I believe if this conversation was in person, I would have been physically attacked, therefore this is why these feelings and conversations are being kept behing closed doors! The shame is that the table seems to have been turned on us in our own country. I have not asked to be personally attacked and would appreciate it if this would not continue.
This isn't a personal attack - but I think you are rather paranoid
But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.
To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
God that is so stupid - 7/7 really happened because of mass immigration huh!!!!!!!!!!
the only way to conquer terrorism is not to participate in it - DO NOT HOLD THIS COUNTRY IN SUCH HIGH REGARDS
You weren't. I am 20, I have read all those authors/poets - sorry - but maybe you are hanging out with the wrong people!
LOL, so you say I weren't mistaken? Just tell me how is it possible I haven't dropped in on you on streets yet and why we haven't yet become the greatest friends in the world? I guess there must be statistically pretty hard to find people like yourself or myself around, am I wrong again? I mean I'd love to, alas it has proving tough so far :/
Originally posted by Piotr/Peter: phillydun wrote:
quote:
You weren't. I am 20, I have read all those authors/poets - sorry - but maybe you are hanging out with the wrong people!
LOL, so you say I weren't mistaken? Just tell me how is it possible I haven't dropped in on you on streets yet and why we haven't yet become the greatest friends in the world? I guess there must be statistically pretty hard to find people like yourself or myself around, am I wrong again? I mean I'd love to, alas it has proving tough so far :/
Hahaha, I don't know really - lots of my friends are similar in regards. I just wanted to say that culture in this country is not so bad. But maybe its down to luck with who you meet?
Originally posted by C4 Admin: A post below from Ed B. the C4 Commissioner:
Where do you think the debate should go next? What awkward questions in this area should C4 be asking?"
How about taking a look at all the laws and restrictions of freedom that have been brought in as a direct result of mass immigration. For example, now there are certain things that would be illegal to say in Britain, but are perfectly legal to say in America. You could ask if it is worth trading in your freedoms for the sake of the supposed benefits of mass immigration.
How come America is allowed these freedoms, but Britain isn't? Have these laws restricting freedom of speech stifled the debate and stopped the debate from progressing properly? In America, they can have a proper debate about such things, but in Britain, we can't, because of the law. Note how it is Britain (complete with all it's ever increasing restrictions) that produced the home grown suicide bombers. If a proper debate had been allowed over the last 40 odd years, maybe this wouldn't have been the case. But how can there ever really be a proper debate when there is restrictions on what can and can't be said? Does an ever increasingly diverse soceity require ever increasingly repressive laws in order to 'glue' it together? Is mass immigration bad for freedom?
You could ask: if we want progress, should the laws resulting from mass immigration be dropped?
But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.
To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
God that is so stupid - 7/7 really happened because of mass immigration huh!!!!!!!!!!
the only way to conquer terrorism is not to participate in it - DO NOT HOLD THIS COUNTRY IN SUCH HIGH REGARDS
The cultural divides created because of mass immigration, as the CRE's Trevor Phillips has said, is a driver of terrorist threat, for people couldn't have set out to maime and kill if they don't look on them as 'others'.
So I restate the fact that countries were formed because it gave people of a similar culture and values collective security, mass immigration has ripped apart that security,
But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.
To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
God that is so stupid - 7/7 really happened because of mass immigration huh!!!!!!!!!!
the only way to conquer terrorism is not to participate in it - DO NOT HOLD THIS COUNTRY IN SUCH HIGH REGARDS
The cultural divides created because of mass immigration, as the CRE's Trevor Phillips has said, is a driver of terrorist threat, for people couldn't have set out to maime and kill if they don't look on them as 'others'.
So I restate the fact that countries were formed because it gave people of a similar culture and values collective security, mass immigration has ripped apart that security,
Unfortunately for you that viewpoint contains one major flaw, if what you say is true then every group that has migrated to this country should have an associated terrorist group.
But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.
To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
God that is so stupid - 7/7 really happened because of mass immigration huh!!!!!!!!!!
the only way to conquer terrorism is not to participate in it - DO NOT HOLD THIS COUNTRY IN SUCH HIGH REGARDS
The cultural divides created because of mass immigration, as the CRE's Trevor Phillips has said, is a driver of terrorist threat, for people couldn't have set out to maime and kill if they don't look on them as 'others'.
So I restate the fact that countries were formed because it gave people of a similar culture and values collective security, mass immigration has ripped apart that security,
Unfortunately for you that viewpoint contains one major flaw, if what you say is true then every group that has migrated to this country should have an associated terrorist group.
Also countries weren't formed that way - the European Empire formed a lot of countries - hardly unifying them.
I’m interested in the uses to which the idea of ‘the nation’ is put. British workers are encouraged to compete in a ‘global’ labour market because, we are told, this makes ‘the nation’ richer. But politicians compete for election to a national rather than a global parliament and impose national rather than global taxes. We have famously opted out of international legislation proposed by the EEC and have retained our national currency. We have national sports teams, a national language and a national flag. In fact it is only the labour market which is supposed to be international. Why?
Uncontrolled immigration has increased GDP it is true but since it has also increased the number of people in the country, average per capita income remains about the same. ‘The nation’ has not become any richer. What has happened is that with the influx of thousands more workers the inexorable economic law of supply and demand has tilted the distribution of national wealth in favour of the greedy few. Although we do not earn any more on average the proportion of this wealth distributed as wages has decreased and the proportion distributed as profits has increased. And this has all happened under a Labour government. Makes you proud, doesn’t it?
Originally posted by Johnstone: I’m interested in the uses to which the idea of ‘the nation’ is put. British workers are encouraged to compete in a ‘global’ labour market because, we are told, this makes ‘the nation’ richer. But politicians compete for election to a national rather than a global parliament and impose national rather than global taxes. We have famously opted out of international legislation proposed by the EEC and have retained our national currency. We have national sports teams, a national language and a national flag. In fact it is only the labour market which is supposed to be international. Why?
Uncontrolled immigration has increased GDP it is true but since it has also increased the number of people in the country, average per capita income remains about the same. ‘The nation’ has not become any richer. What has happened is that with the influx of thousands more workers the inexorable economic law of supply and demand has tilted the distribution of national wealth in favour of the greedy few. Although we do not earn any more on average the proportion of this wealth distributed as wages has decreased and the proportion distributed as profits has increased. And this has all happened under a Labour government. Makes you proud, doesn’t it?
One of the greatest liberating events to happen here was the Black Death, not good for the people who died, but it liberated the labourers who survived as they then had the whip hand to who and for what they would sell their labour. So its understanable why the CBI wants mass immigration, in fact wanting to turn us into a dormitory country for migrant labour, as R Omar suggested in his conclusion, but why the hell the Unions are supporting mass immigration, completely eludes me.
But you wanted an example of the damaging effects of immigration on our culture, well I think you've accepted that this is a clear example.
To be honest I cannot spot any relation amongst myself and Catholic Church's success in politics here. Perhaps, there are some groups of immigrants who influence this, nevertheless this is the whole beauty and also price we all pay for living with another human beings, ain't it?
No it isn't, for part of the reason people live in countries , or in fact formed nations is that there was a colletive security gained by living with people of a similar culture, mass immigration has ripped this security apart, which people found to their cost on 7/7.
God that is so stupid - 7/7 really happened because of mass immigration huh!!!!!!!!!!
the only way to conquer terrorism is not to participate in it - DO NOT HOLD THIS COUNTRY IN SUCH HIGH REGARDS
The cultural divides created because of mass immigration, as the CRE's Trevor Phillips has said, is a driver of terrorist threat, for people couldn't have set out to maime and kill if they don't look on them as 'others'.
So I restate the fact that countries were formed because it gave people of a similar culture and values collective security, mass immigration has ripped apart that security,
Unfortunately for you that viewpoint contains one major flaw, if what you say is true then every group that has migrated to this country should have an associated terrorist group.
Also countries weren't formed that way - the European Empire formed a lot of countries - hardly unifying them.
Empires aren't countries. And I support my case with one word, Yugoslavia.
