quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Adriana wrote:

quote:

I have not lived in Poland for ages but from what my family members and friends say what has changed since than is that people in order to achieve anything have to be now more pro-active whereas 20 or more years ago they were just made into paranoid , passive citizens of big nanny soviet state.

Yeah, I'd rather compare above mentioned nanny to a wolf being disguised as a goodhearted grandmother, lol.

Aye, aye, I think Poles have recently founded more medium-size business in recent years than any other countries in Europe. I think it was backed up in some statistics that I cannot remember of now catually.

Now, sometimes I get an impression that local folks who complain about jobs being stolen are as passive as some People were 20 years ago back in Poland - peeking at a nanny and waiting for her to take the first step.

quote:

Originally posted by Adriana111:

quote:

Originally posted by Londoner1001:

quote:

Originally posted by Adriana111:

quote:

Originally posted by Londoner1001:

quote:

Originally posted by Adriana111:

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Grahamjt wrote:

quote:

and fuelling a boom in the Polish economy
http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=20561

You make me laugh. I've found nothing in it apart of some estimates to make mates like youfeel overwhelmed by bits of economic gobbledygook.

If you had a clue about economy and its growth you would figure out this has scarcely anything to do with fuelling it back in Poland. If I faffed about reasons the way you do, I would have to advise you to chase up some figures on British companies/branches bleeding Polish economy dry while withholding their profits out of Poland back to UK rather than reinvesting and increasing salaries This is as valid as your discoveries! :P

Also, you don't realise what sort of dough Indians invest into the UK industry. That's one of reasons why everybody including media is so
quiet about Indians and Chinese in terms of immigration. Well, am not bothered. They smell investment money coming to the UK!

Hi, I do agree with Peter/Piotr and also would like to add to what Piotr said that Polish migrants have been filling the jobs British do not want to do. There is no mention in the sent links what are the net profits from all of the migrant work and how it is being distributed so, to be honest, for a layman it is all rather opaque.

Adriana

I think the situation is rather more complicated than that.

There are job that get filled by the migrants which locals could have never filled.

There are also jobs taken by migrants, which locals could have done.

And do you think if a migrant worker is skilled enough, made an effort to learn to fit into the British culture and the language/jargon for the particular job and is driven and has a potential it is still not enough to keep him here?

I believe as many people can come and stay for ever how long as long as the local population (which includes the children of migrants) doesn't fall bellow a certain level, when they start feeling like strangers in large areas of their own city.

This how I'm feeling at the moment.

And they don't have to 100% integrate into British culture, they could bring their own culture and integrate it into British culture.

On another note, if Britain is to be very open with its immigration policy, so does all other countries to British people. However this hasn't been the case recently.

I've been very angry with the immigration policy lately because it has created a situation of where I feel a stranger for much of my city.

Yes, I agree with you that recently London has perhaps become less gelled together. However I believe things has changed after the 7/7 which was very traumatic and by saying that I do not want to take anything away from achievements of the Muslims immigrants who are decent, hardworking, and who make great contributions to the society. I believe we all are individuals. Racial, religious, national generalizations and pigeonholing make those who can contribute a lot culturally to the City and are or have roots in different part of the world feel like no matter what efforts they make or what they do they do not stand a chance. I think we as a city are in a sorry state because of this. We are in a state of despair. There should be more effort in government to try to find ways to gell London together the way it used to be, but how(?) , if the amounts of negativity coming from the media on the daily basis are so staggering. There is not a single day without reports about war in Iraq, terrorist suspects, "immigrants waves that are threat to British culture" etc If one goes to the USA no one there watches the news. There are 1000+ channels on tv and generally tv is a source of entertainment only. I am not saying it is ok to have a shallow culture limited to the pop music, soap operas such as Dirty Sexy Money and sport but sometimes, and especially on a rainy day in November or February those kind of overload with negative news make me reach my pain threshold if you know what I mean.. I think London is very beautiful place, rich culturally, there is always something going on in art, music, theater. Why concentrate on the negative issues 27/7, if there are and still could be so many exciting things here going on.

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Geeza wrote:

Then, we fancy having something in return, though it turns out you wish it was just a one way road. Great fraudulent thinking My point is you do benefit from the others and expect other not to benefit from you. Spain puts up with Brits cos it's a part of EU - something affects them, it may well have negative impact on Poland. Simple as that - global economy, right? Not to mention, to whom all these British expats would rent their flats in Britain if there were no immigration?

quote:

Originally posted by TrevGo:

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
Geeza wrote:

Then, we fancy having something in return, though it turns out you wish it was just a one way road. Great fraudulent thinking My point is you do benefit from the others and expect other not to benefit from you. Spain puts up with Brits cos it's a part of EU - something affects them, it may well have negative impact on Poland. Simple as that - global economy, right? Not to mention, to whom all these British expats would rent their flats in Britain if there were no immigration?

I'm glad you mentioned Spain and Germany as of course, you would not have had the option to waltz into their job markets unfettered when Poland joined the EU.

Given the sheer numbers of eastern immigrants (not only Poles of course) that have come into the UK, I think there has been very little trouble. Isolated incidents, but in the main, the legendary British tolerance has played to form. It is hardly surprising there is widespread concern, and almost without exception, the anger on here is directed to our numbskull government - not to immigrants themselves.

Do you think we are uniquely intolerant? Do you think the French or Spanish would have been more welcoming to a sudden influx of 1 million?
You can only speculate, as we will never know.
What about Poles? A million Brits arrive in Wroclaw and not a whimper do you reckon?

That the Polish economy is on the up is a very pertinent matter. Part of the reason for the "tramsition period" of 7 years, during which time the established member states had no obligation to open their job markets was to allow the accession country's economies to aclimatise and hopefully grow. By the time the barriers come down, it will be a more level playing field. It's the idiotic UK government that ignored this.

Most of the people expressing concern on here are NOT "Little Englanders" or xenophobes, but showing a perfectly logical reaction.

quote:

Originally posted by bigberther:
Do you think we are uniquely intolerant? Do you think the French or Spanish would have been more welcoming to a sudden influx of 1 million?

quote:

I'm glad you mentioned Spain and Germany as of course, you would not have had the option to waltz into their job markets unfettered when Poland joined the EU.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bigberther:
Do you think we are uniquely intolerant? Do you think the French or Spanish would have been more welcoming to a sudden influx of 1 million?



We're not uniqely intolerant. The Spanish have taken in far more immigrants than we have. They have an influx of 2.4 million between 2000 and 2005.

quote:

they do their own

quote:

Can you give me one example of a country in which so many creeds and nationalities co-exist with so little trouble?

quote:

to some extend

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:
TrevGo wrote:

quote:

Can you give me one example of a country in which so many creeds and nationalities co-exist with so little trouble?

Well, perhaps my feelings are biased to some extend as I used to live quite a lot across smaller towns of Wales. The bottom line is that I gained bigger numbers of foreign friends and just two really good natives of which one is an older Welsh chap, and the other a Scottish chap. It's just how it goes for some reason.

Perhaps some other Poles/Czechs and other EUs could give me a hand and say whether they feel they have gained a lot of good British friends in their own age here throughout recent 3/4 years ... Cos integration isn't just about letting us in and work, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

quote:

I wish I were as highly qualified, in which case I may be a teensy weensy pompous/arrogant too. A small number of high skilled folk is not the issue.

Thanks for this teensy weensy, my point is there are quite a lot of us who ain't just navvy folks here and we find offensive that during debates about immigration Poles are shown just as stealing your plumbing work! Besides, the opportunity to educate is out there - go for it if you like and be pompous according to your will Otherwise don't be surprised that it's harder to find a simple job.

Adriana wrote:

quote:

From my personal experience I can say the English are nice people to work and a have a drink with on systematic basis. Good time keepers and delightful guests.

TrevGo! There you go. Perhaps this is just me having an odd luck ... Adriana hasn't got this bad opinion about integration on such personal level.

quote:

Originally posted by TrevGo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

The only folk who don't want to integrate is the British? Here you go again.
Can you give me one example of a country in which so many creeds and nationalities co-exist with so little trouble?

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

I don't have bad opinion about the UK, am just frustrated on this debate where Poles were dragged into this once they settled in well after lots of hardship so to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:

quote:

Originally posted by TrevGo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

Can you give me one example of a country in which so many creeds and nationalities co-exist with so little trouble?

France, Italy, America, Germany....the list is endless really, its just we seem to get so uptight about our so called superiority. I thought being british was having reason, rationality and a stiff upper lip. I do, and so everyone I know who regards immigration as an inevitable fact of contemporary society. You can either except it- your throw up your hands in ill-concieved despair lamenting at your long dead 'cultural identity'. Most of us are out their making real acquaintences with real people, regardless of their nationality or race- we're going to shisha bars, and eating lebanese, morrocan cuisine- drinking in russian tea rooms: all essentially realising that this era of false and misguided nationalism is coming to a long awaited end. And I'm bloody glad im not old.

quote:

Originally posted by tompaine:

quote:

Originally posted by TrevGo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

Can you give me one example of a country in which so many creeds and nationalities co-exist with so little trouble?

France, Italy, America, Germany....the list is endless really, its just we seem to get so uptight about our so called superiority. I thought being british was having reason, rationality and a stiff upper lip. I do, and so everyone I know who regards immigration as an inevitable fact of contemporary society. You can either except it- your throw up your hands in ill-concieved despair lamenting at your long dead 'cultural identity'. The majority of you losers would have simalar retarded opinions about modern art- or the Turner Prize. Perhaps you eat jellied eels, and go for drives in your Rover, or indeed your Asten Martin wearing your hideous Burbery clothes- drink Tetley tea and eat smarties (all owned by foreign companies) and think 'my good, isn't it so good to have a distinct, extemely bowdlerized, incoherent sense of identity- which we can unfairly impose on others less fortunate than us'- the predominance of us (young people) dont really subscribe to your Jeremy Clarkson, Daily Mail reading views. Most of us are out their making real acquaintences with real people, regardless of their nationality or race- we're going to shisha bars, and eating lebanese, morrocan cuisine- drinking in russian tea rooms: all essentially realising that this era of false and misguided nationalism is coming to a long awaited end. And I'm bloody glad im not old.

quote:

Originally posted by Piotr/Peter:

quote:

to some extend

I ment: to some extent! Gosh, this all typing of mine is too hectic

quote:

Peter it is very unfortunate that Polish people such as yourself are shall we say getting the bad press regarding immigration.

quote:

Firstly let me say that immigrants should not be blamed for levels of immigration our government should - very important point!

quote:

A number of posters have reinforced this point might I add.

quote:

It is interesting to note that now because the immigrants are white and are coming in unmanageable numbers we are now 'allowed' to air our concerns.