I'd specifically like to hear about how the country deserves to have its own soldiers kidnapped for execution by its own citizens, and choosing a Muslim soldier to boot!

If there seems to be some defense for such actions that not everybody condemns, I say screw it. The words no longer mean anything at all.

It is all ok really we just have to figure how to put it in the right context

quote:

Originally posted by silmii:

"You also have a short memory span - there has been war raging in the middle east for decades in one territory or another - don't kid yourself that all was quiet on the eastern front before bush came to power!!!!!"

And sadly no, i do not have a short memory span, i am aware of the crisis occuring before President Bush decided to interfere. But i am sure it wasnt as bad as it is now. Bush has not created "law and order" in the east. He has created chaos and destruction, in the name of "war against terror", and has justified it also.

sadly you do have a very short memory span - or understanding of history - the seven year war, the bloodbaths in the lebanon in the 70's - far far bloodier decades have befallen the east than the last - and all without direct interference from the states. Media, you forget, has a huge part to play in the perception of greater bloodshed now than in the past. So please - get of the high moral ground and start talking about issues in an intelligent and dignified manner. you people spout all the venim but have very little to contribute when it comes to the solutions!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by silmii:
Since the events of 9-11, there has been an unrelenting campaign launched to change Islam into something more palatable to Western society.
The war on terrorism had begun, creating islamophobia wherever it could reach. Showering the public with corrupt media in order for the public to "hate" islam and with it the muslims. Claiming that muslims were terrorists, radicals, extremists. Even creating fear in the hearts of people who are ignorant of islam; enabling them to also harbour hate against islam.

Fair enough, what happened in the 9/11 attacks was truly horrific, and sad. Many innocent lives were lost, leaving behind bereaved loved ones. I feel for them.
But what is happening now is no less than a 9/11 attack. I would even say far greater.

The wars all seem to be directed at majority muslim countries: Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia. Where thousands upon thousands of innocent lives have died at the hands of oppressive leaders.
Where innocent women and children have been killed in huge masses. Where blown up limbs of muslim men and women look exactly like those pulled from the rubble of the Twin Towers.

While meanwhile tens of thousands of innocent Muslims continue to be tortured in far away lands like Guantanamo Bay, Bagram airbase in Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia and ghost prisons throughout the world.

In this country, you have the new anti-terror laws. You can arrest and detain a person for 14 days, just on suspicion.
Imagine those muslim men who have beards or the muslim women who wear headscarf, imagine the looks they get when they get onto the train, or the bus, or just passing through the street.
The people of Britain may be scared of terrorists, but i assure you the muslim men and women probably fear the accusations of being a terrorist more. Do muslims have to continue to live this way?

Hijabs or in English headscarves had been banned in france, causing the women of Islam to go without their dignity and modesty. Discrimination towards the muslims, shown worldwide, without a trace of remorse.

Surely no1 should be treated like this???

Quote; "Since the events of 9-11, there has been an unrelenting campaign launched to change Islam into something more palatable to Western society".Unquote.

So you recognise the fact that present day Islam is unpalatable to western society. How right you are! Now you seem a reasonable but totally misled person who has been thoroughly brainwashed by the most oppressive religion on this planet.I don't doubt for one minute that you are trying to be sincere, but unfortunately you are attempting to defend the indefensible. You complain that Muslims are treated with scorn and suspicion since 9/11.
As vile an act of the mass slaughter 9/11 was, it is only the tip of the iceberg of hate and slaughter carried out by the so-called peaceful and tolerant religion which is now an anethema throughout the civilised world. You seem to consider yourself a sentient and compassionate person, and yet, you are still an adherent to this religion whose so-called holy books condone such violence and killing of those not of your faith.

Quote:"The war on terrorism had begun, creating islamophobia wherever it could reach".Unquote.

A phobia is an irrational fear or dread aroused by a particular object or circumstance.
Would you be able to distuinghish between a peaceful Muslim and a Radical Muslim terrorist just be looking at him/her?
Well, surprise surprise! neither can we. Is it therefore logical that we should have a suspicion and even dislike for anyone belonging to that truculant religion. No Silmii, what you unjustly call Islamaphobia is really a valid and justifiable fear of adherents to an Islamic ideology which have openly declared that they will establish an Islamic Caliphate worldwide by any means necessary. Judaism and Christianity have reconciled with the modern world and have found a way which is not incompatible with the modern world and still be faithful to their beliefs. Islam is incapable of this because they are incapable of reformation.Judaism and Christianity have allowed seperation of their faith and the State.
Islam is incapable of this as their faith is their politics.
Why is it that Muslims are in complete denial of the fact that their medieval religion is incompatible with modernity?

Quote:"Showering the public with corrupt media in order for the public to "hate" islam and with it the muslims. Claiming that muslims were terrorists, radicals, extremists". Unquote.

So the media are corrupt because they report the Islamic atrocities carried around the globe?
Did 9/11 warrant reporting? did the Bali bombings warrant reporting? did the Madrid bombings warrant reporting? Did the London bombings warrant reporting? Does the many Muslim terrorists now on trial in the UK warrant reporting?
Why is it that Christians, Jew,Hindus and Buddhists etc. live together with little or no conflict?. Why is it that Muslims wherever they go,create conflict: in Canada, USA, Belgium, Holland, France,Britain and many other countries around the world? When you understand this, you will be on the path to true revelation.

Quote:"Even creating fear in the hearts of people who are ignorant of islam; enabling them to also harbour hate against islam".Unquote.

Since 9/11 and the ensueing atrocities carried out by Islamists, many non-Muslims have actually bothered to learn about a religion which could carry out such evil acts in the name of their god. Consequently many non-Muslims possible know more about Islam than many who call themselves Muslims. They have read the verses in the Qura'n which preach killing, hate and intollerance. They have read about cruelty and cutting off of limbs and death by stoning, which incidentally is still carried out in Islamic countries today.

Quote:"Imagine those muslim men who have beards or the muslim women who wear headscarf, imagine the looks they get when they get onto the train, or the bus, or just passing through the street.
The people of Britain may be scared of terrorists, but i assure you the muslim men and women probably fear the accusations of being a terrorist more. Do muslims have to continue to live this way"? Unquote.

If Muslims had chosen to integrate and assimulate into western society they would be unrecognisable from any other Asians. But most of them insist on being apart and wear a form of dress which makes them identifiable. This extreme form of dress is not required by their religion.I'll let you conclude why they insist on wearing such clothes which are incongruous within a western society.Surely they can dress modestly and keep their dignity and modesty.It is also a fact that many Muslim women hate the Muslim form of dress, it degrades them. Those that freely choose to wear it, do so to make a statement, which is not well recieved by the majority of non-muslims.

Boston can I ask how many muslims do you actually know in real life?
Most racist groups or any sort of hate groups or people in general hating someone different to them is largely due to the fact, that they dont even know personally people they hate. They act upon their own insecurities and emotions based on the information they have, rarely questioning themselves about what they believe, this is total ignorance of the facts.
The reason the west is still not in dark ages today is because of Islam, in fact the whole world will be still in a dark age of ignorance and corruptness if it wasnt for the God fearing men and women restraining themselves from the evils of the world. Unfortunately we're all heading to the same ignorance and evil that we came out of. The cycle continues and history is repeating itself once again.

Why can't we all just live peacefully together???

Why do we have to have certain individuals throwing their toys out the pram if they don't get what they want??? It is silly....... Im sorry but I have no desire to be Muslim, so why are these terrorists hell bent on making us convert?? What difference does it make?? I thought religion was a personal preference and choice??

If the universe is too amazing to have been created by chance, and that means it must have been created by Allah, then who created Allah, as He is therefore even more amazing than the universe?

quote:

Originally posted by purifytheheartandmind:
Boston can I ask how many muslims do you actually know in real life?
Most racist groups or any sort of hate groups or people in general hating someone different to them is largely due to the fact, that they dont even know personally people they hate. They act upon their own insecurities and emotions based on the information they have, rarely questioning themselves about what they believe, this is total ignorance of the facts.
The reason the west is still not in dark ages today is because of Islam, in fact the whole world will be still in a dark age of ignorance and corruptness if it wasnt for the God fearing men and women restraining themselves from the evils of the world. Unfortunately we're all heading to the same ignorance and evil that we came out of. The cycle continues and history is repeating itself once again.

I would agree with much of Boston's post.

How many Muslims do I know?

I met them as classmates, friends and work colleagues.

The ones that struck me the most are the Morroccan and Algerian who would go out with European women, but regarded them as sl*uts.

"They would never marry them, they prefer proper women from their culture."

Then there were the Turkish waiters I knew. They were all homosexuals and hated their own country of origin and hated Islam.

They left their country because there was a danger of being assaulted for their lifestyle.

Did anyone see the interview at lunchtime with Hirsi Ameer Ali, Somalian born ex-Dutch MP, now living in USA under armed bodyguard following death threats from Muslims in Holland (& presumably everywhere else) following her association with Theo Van Gogh over the film?
It was the most refreshingly frank interview I've ever seen from a politician (& certainly from a Muslim) - no obfuscation, just direct answers to direct questions, in stark contrast to the 2 British interviewees, one Jasper Lee (Ken's Racial Advisor) and a woman from the Green Party, both of whom displayed their ignorance of Islam. When asked whether the problem lay with certain factions of Muslims or Islam itself, Ms Ali said, 'Islam', adding that if Islam is practised in its pure form, it is incompatible with Western laws, and will be the kind that we know from the so-called 'extremists'. She was against multiculturalism, which she felt is responsible for the Muslim problem we are now having in the UK, and other European countries, and advocated complete integration with no exceptions.
I can't help feeling that if we had Muslim MPs of her ilk (& bravery) in the UK, maybe we wouldn't have had 7/7 etc.

quote:

Originally posted by LionKing07:

quote:

Civilised debate is great. You don't agree with homosexuality but accept it happens. I don't agree with Islam but accept it happens. You intimated that it wasn't too bad living in a muslim country because 'they are still living there'. Yes maybe they are, but living in terror for their lives. Same goes for women who 'stray' from what is dictated for them.

Waaay too much TV. Go visit a Muslim country, then talk. British Muslims are generally more strict than in the Muslim countries. Believe me I am well travelled.

Well bully for you. And for your info - you don't know me, what I do for a living or where I have travelled. And believe me - I am well travelled too (and not the backpacking type).

I also am well-travelled. Sometimes with a backpack, sometimes not.

I am growing increasingly convinced as well that Islam, practiced in its pure form, is incompatible with western civilization, and just as full of flaws. It is certainly incompatible with democracy.

Mr. Bush was only able to study at Yale, so he never learned much about history or world cultures. I understand that Mr. Blair was advantaged to have a somewhat better education, but to no avail.

quote:

Originally posted by purifytheheartandmind:
Boston can I ask how many muslims do you actually know in real life?
Most racist groups or any sort of hate groups or people in general hating someone different to them is largely due to the fact, that they dont even know personally people they hate. They act upon their own insecurities and emotions based on the information they have, rarely questioning themselves about what they believe, this is total ignorance of the facts.
The reason the west is still not in dark ages today is because of Islam, in fact the whole world will be still in a dark age of ignorance and corruptness if it wasnt for the God fearing men and women restraining themselves from the evils of the world. Unfortunately we're all heading to the same ignorance and evil that we came out of. The cycle continues and history is repeating itself once again.

Reply to PURIFYTHEHEARTANDMIND. Thank you for your response to my posting.
Quote: “Boston can I ask how many muslims do you actually know in real life?” Unquote

Well it may surprise you to know that I know three colleagues who are apostate muslims and one so-called devout muslim. The apostate muslims have integrated completely into British society and seem happy and content with their lives. They openly renounce Islam but steer clear of our so-called devout muslim who happens to be a sullen miserable so-and-so and continually demanding a room to be set aside for prayers, some chance of that irrational demand considering the cost of floor space in London. Whereas the apostate muslims wear the most modern clothes possible and are fairly fashion conscious, our devout friend insists on wearing what can only be described as a nightshirt and pyjamas As my apostate colleagues do not live in a muslim community they are free of reprisals and persecution by so-called peaceful and tolerant muslims, however they have admitted to me that they have not informed their families.

Quote:”Most racist groups or any sort of hate groups or people in general hating someone different to them is largely due to the fact, that they dont even know personally people they hate.” Unquote.

Yeah! I get your message, if I don’t agree with Islam and criticise it and the atrocities committed in its name, it follows that according to your victim mentality, then I must be either a bigot, racist or islamaphobe.
And that is the exact response we expect from muslims. Fortunately the people of this country have wised up to this ploy: we hear the constant and calculated whining of muslims that they are being victimised and misunderstood by British society. But you and all your brothers and sisters of Islam should know that you are no longer succeeding to “pull the wool over our eyes” We know now that Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance, but a vile intolerant and oppressive ideology which must not be allowed to take a foothold in western societies.

Quote: “They act upon their own insecurities and emotions based on the information they have, rarely questioning themselves about what they believe, this is total ignorance of the facts.

Yes, we act upon our insecurities and emotions exactly based on the information we have: which is the actions of a vile, intolerant and oppressive Islamic ideology which our politicians have allowed to flourish in our midst.
We non-muslims have at last come to this conclusion by scrutinizing your religious writings and your actions.
You are the ones who need to do some introspection, and maybe you will eventually come to the realization that a state within a state is preposterous and will never be tolerated by the indigenous population of this country. You know and are well aware that Islam has ambitions of world domination, so now, the free people of western societies are also aware of these ambitions which so-called moderate muslims are very reticent about, but nevertheless are supportive of.

Quote: “The reason the west is still not in dark ages today is because of Islam, in fact the whole world will be still in a dark age of ignorance and corruptness if it wasnt for the God fearing men and women restraining themselves from the evils of the world.” Unquote.

A little history lesson for you which I have put on here before PURIFYTHEMIND and let’s hope that it does actually purify your mind.
There are three major monotheistic religions in the world: Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the 16th century, Judaism and Christianity reconciled with the modern world. The rabbis and scholars found a way to settle up and pave the way forward, and though religion remained the centre of life, church and state became separate. The law of the state separated from and became independent from religion without conflict of conscience. Individual rights, human rights, ….all these are defining points of modern Western civilization. When that happened, it unleashed the scientific revolution and greatest outpouring of art, literature and music the world has ever known.
But wouldn’t you know it! Incapable of change, reasoning or logic, Islam stuck to the medieval, barbaric Sharia law, and still does today. Even a large proportion of muslims want the right to import this incredibly cruel barbaric law into their western communities. Now! You mention that “the whole world will still be in a dark age of ignorance and corruptness if it wasn’t for God fearing men” etc. I assume that you assume that these God fearing men were muslims. First, the most corrupt countries are in the Middle East. Secondly if it wasn’t for the modern technology and ingenuity of infidel westerners you lot would not have been able to get the oil out of the ground.
No sir! You are completely deceiving yourself , Islam is still in the dark ages of ignorance and superstition, we in the West have moved on.

Quote: “Unfortunately we're all heading to the same ignorance and evil that we came out of. The cycle continues and history is repeating itself once again“. Unquote.

Well that is true of Islam, but the West is not heading towards ignorance, it is advancing in science and technology: but in doing so it still allows for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, providing it is peaceful and not subversive to society.
What a pity Islam cannot make similar claims.

quote:

Well bully for you. And for your info - you don't know me, what I do for a living or where I have travelled. And believe me - I am well travelled too (and not the backpacking type).

Your quote non-Muslims are "living in terror for fear of their lives" in Muslim countries.

The above shows no matter how much you've allegedly travelled, you are obviously and clearly imagining a fantasy world. The picture that you portray is simply non-existant. The people fleeing for their lives right now in Muslim countries, are Muslims from the bombs of the West and Israel. Cherie Blair visited Palestine, and when she came back she stated her sympathy for suicide bombers and understands why they do it, she was forced to apologise for this. Jenny Tonge was an MP for the LibDems and she said she would even consider becoming one!

You obviously did not travel to Palestine. Infact I doubt you've visited any Muslim country. If you did let me know which one of those countries you witnessed non-Muslims fleeing in terror for their lives. You fantasy man.

To me, it's more along the lines of the way non-Muslims are treated in Islamic countries. Even the Oriental countries are becoming fundamentalist.

From my reading, intermarriage between religions in Indonesia and Malaysia have gone down in numbers. I can't even provide a link since it was a while ago.

I do know that you can't build a place of worship for Christians in Saudi Arabia. As a Christian you are a second class citizen.

In that country and in the United Arab Emirates, Asian Muslims are also second-class citizens.

Boston I am afraid your comments reflect you dont have a grasp of whats really going on, and I dont expect many people to do so. Your judgements and conclusions are hate driven and stereotypical comments, how original. If anything its people that think like you, who are making a barrier between cultures trying to integrate.
I am a muslim and I love Britain, just like majority of muslims do. We are 3rd 4th generation, born and bred in this country, when abroad we call Britain back home, because this is home to us. The nerve that you consider yourself more loyal to Britain because your white or non muslim, I find this is a common view among the bigoted. I like the majority of muslims would fight for this country, if anyone threatened it, but that threat is non existent right now.
Muslims are fully integrated its the people, who claim otherwise that cant really integrate, a new method of putting your bigoted and racial views across. At least the BNP is outright about it.

quote:

Originally posted by purifytheheartandmind:
Boston I am afraid your comments reflect you dont have a grasp of whats really going on, and I dont expect many people to do so. Your judgements and conclusions are hate driven and stereotypical comments, how original. If anything its people that think like you, who are making a barrier between cultures trying to integrate.
I am a muslim and I love Britain, just like majority of muslims do. We are 3rd 4th generation, born and bred in this country, when abroad we call Britain back home, because this is home to us. The nerve that you consider yourself more loyal to Britain because your white or non muslim, I find this is a common view among the bigoted. I like the majority of muslims would fight for this country, if anyone threatened it, but that threat is non existent right now.
Muslims are fully integrated its the people, who claim otherwise that cant really integrate, a new method of putting your bigoted and racial views across. At least the BNP is outright about it.

Non-existent?

When do we "exactly" call it an existing threat?

When we have a bunch of British people killing their own brethren?

Happened with the I.R.A.and it happened on one July the 7th.

British people who are taught to spread hate.

BNP to name one side and in another side Islamists.

Nick Griffin was charged for the accusation he made towards Muslims. I do not think he will be charged with that again since he can prove from the Dispatches programme many of the things he claimed.

If those Imams sermons were followed as an example, by the majority of Christian priests, normal British people would have walked out. They would have also called to police to prosecute said priest.

Islamists are feeding the fire of British fascism.

I do not want to live in a country where I would be concerned by both the BNP and Islamists.

quote:

Originally posted by LionKing07:

quote:

Well bully for you. And for your info - you don't know me, what I do for a living or where I have travelled. And believe me - I am well travelled too (and not the backpacking type).

Your quote non-Muslims are "living in terror for fear of their lives" in Muslim countries.

The above shows no matter how much you've allegedly travelled, you are obviously and clearly imagining a fantasy world. The picture that you portray is simply non-existant. The people fleeing for their lives right now in Muslim countries, are Muslims from the bombs of the West and Israel. Cherie Blair visited Palestine, and when she came back she stated her sympathy for suicide bombers and understands why they do it, she was forced to apologise for this. Jenny Tonge was an MP for the LibDems and she said she would even consider becoming one!

You obviously did not travel to Palestine. Infact I doubt you've visited any Muslim country. If you did let me know which one of those countries you witnessed non-Muslims fleeing in terror for their lives. You fantasy man.

The quote was regarding gay people living in fear of their lives in hell holes like Iran if you'd bothered to follow the thread and read it properly. And I care not whether you believe if I have travelled. Your powers of deduction from a few lines of text on a website amaze me. Is this how you deduce all your facts? It seems you are the fantasist if you are able to do this.You rude little person.

In answer to the OP, I don't think Muslims deserve to be treated this way. It's apparent that certain people's opinion are formed by what the media portrays yet know nothing and have not lived with or understood other religions or communities. I am tired of this "you're either with us or against us" attitude that seems to fester with those who fuel the propaganda.
I for one do not have a problem with any religion but I have a real problem with extremists who wave the religious banner Catholic, Christian, Jewish or other.

To Mr Rhodes. What is your view on the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality?

I think that the answer to the opening question can only be assessed by individuals, Muslim or not. The criterion being: If you believe in and are willing to act upon or somehow support terror and/or malicious violence toward others for whatever reason, religious or otherwise, then the answer is yes, you deserve to be treated poorly in a civilized community and should leave forthwith.

Muslims do not deserve to be treated this way Criminals do!