quote:

Originally posted by silmii:
Since the events of 9-11, there has been an unrelenting campaign launched to change Islam into something more palatable to Western society.
The war on terrorism had begun, creating islamophobia wherever it could reach. Showering the public with corrupt media in order for the public to "hate" islam and with it the muslims. Claiming that muslims were terrorists, radicals, extremists. Even creating fear in the hearts of people who are ignorant of islam; enabling them to also harbour hate against islam.

Fair enough, what happened in the 9/11 attacks was truly horrific, and sad. Many innocent lives were lost, leaving behind bereaved loved ones. I feel for them.
But what is happening now is no less than a 9/11 attack. I would even say far greater.

The wars all seem to be directed at majority muslim countries: Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia. Where thousands upon thousands of innocent lives have died at the hands of oppressive leaders.
Where innocent women and children have been killed in huge masses. Where blown up limbs of muslim men and women look exactly like those pulled from the rubble of the Twin Towers.

While meanwhile tens of thousands of innocent Muslims continue to be tortured in far away lands like Guantanamo Bay, Bagram airbase in Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia and ghost prisons throughout the world.

In this country, you have the new anti-terror laws. You can arrest and detain a person for 14 days, just on suspicion.
Imagine those muslim men who have beards or the muslim women who wear headscarf, imagine the looks they get when they get onto the train, or the bus, or just passing through the street.
The people of Britain may be scared of terrorists, but i assure you the muslim men and women probably fear the accusations of being a terrorist more. Do muslims have to continue to live this way?

Hijabs or in English headscarves had been banned in france, causing the women of Islam to go without their dignity and modesty. Discrimination towards the muslims, shown worldwide, without a trace of remorse.

Surely no1 should be treated like this???

firstly kashmir!! not a muslim country its part of india and the muslims are fighting for to get it so if muslims are dying there then its their own fault....

i agree that people need to realise that islam is a religon and not a race...

also about the headscarves.. women going without their headscarves mean going out without their dignity!!! whatever!! surely they are loosing their dignity by hiding behinding a piece of clothing so that the sleezy muslim guys wont ogle over them...
they should feel equal!! also i why do you think muslims should have special privlages when in france all relious things are forbidden in school!!
muslims want to be treated the same but they look down on every other religon!!

they are all brian washed and all these wars wouldnt happen if they learned how to live in peace!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by **sexyoaks**:

firstly kashmir!! not a muslim country its part of india and the muslims are fighting for to get it so if muslims are dying there then its their own fault....

Islam has been spread by the sword so every country that is now Islamic is so because of Muslims fighting or demographic conquest.

The implications of this should be noted by everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Geeza..:

quote:

Originally posted by **sexyoaks**:

firstly kashmir!! not a muslim country its part of india and the muslims are fighting for to get it so if muslims are dying there then its their own fault....

Islam has been spread by the sword so every country that is now Islamic is so because of Muslims fighting or demographic conquest.

The implications of this should be noted by everyone.

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there a thing called the Crusades which tried to force Christianity on the east?

Didn't Cromwell lead a civil war to try and attempt to wipe out christianity in england in the 17th century?

Didnt the british empire take (*coughForce*) christianity upon the countless countries and islands they took over and ruled?

I find it hilarious how non-muslims always go on and on and on about the violent history behind islam (not that im an expert on that matter), but completely ignore the violent history of england concerning religion, and how most of the world are only christians because the British Empire forced into upon them.

Im christian too mind.

I seriously doubt there is a single religion in existance that has not been connected to or used violence to spread its word.

Just look at china right now, and what happening there! Stop being hypercrits and acting like Islam is the only religion which has a violent past connected to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Si Scott

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there a thing called the Crusades which tried to force Christianity on the east?

Islamic fanatic accuse
The West of a being "Crusaders".

Interesting in itself that it was Islamic armies themselves that began 'The Crusades' by invading Byzantine in 1095.

Muslims also seemingly forget Mohammads own 'Crusade' against the Jews. Saudi Arabia was the homeland of Muhammad and Islam. Not one Jewish clan remains in Saudi Arabia today because of what Muhammad did during his life. "Muhammad ordered military attacks against the Jews of Arabia four times. When he attacked the first two Jewish villages, Muhammad looted and drove the people away. At the third village he gathered all the men together—between 800 and 900 people—and killed them in front of the women and children. Then the Muslims took the women and children as slaves. The fourth village was overcome by the Muslim champion defeating the Jewish champion. After the victory, Muslims killed some of the men and took women and children as slaves. These events are well-documented in Islamic history. This genocide constitutes an Arabian holocaust."

There is also the 'Crusade' into Spain which lasted 780 areas. After removing the Muslim rulers from their lands the Spanish took back their country with Reconquista ("Reconquest").

Also is the Islamic conquest of India which resulted in 80 million Hindus being killed over 400 years."The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period."

Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Even those Hindus who converted to Islam were not immune from persecution, which was illustrated by the Muslim Caste System in India as established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari. , where they were regarded as "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to severe discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes.

So while Islamists contine accuse the 'The West' of being Crusaders, they might to concider Islams own Crusades.

quote:

Originally posted by Si Scott:

quote:

Originally posted by Geeza..:

quote:

Originally posted by **sexyoaks**:

firstly kashmir!! not a muslim country its part of india and the muslims are fighting for to get it so if muslims are dying there then its their own fault....

Islam has been spread by the sword so every country that is now Islamic is so because of Muslims fighting or demographic conquest.

The implications of this should be noted by everyone.

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there a thing called the Crusades which tried to force Christianity on the east?

Didn't Cromwell lead a civil war to try and attempt to wipe out christianity in england in the 17th century?

Didnt the british empire take (*coughForce*) christianity upon the countless countries and islands they took over and ruled?

I find it hilarious how non-muslims always go on and on and on about the violent history behind islam (not that im an expert on that matter), but completely ignore the violent history of england concerning religion, and how most of the world are only christians because the British Empire forced into upon them.

Im christian too mind.

I seriously doubt there is a single religion in existance that has not been connected to or used violence to spread its word.

Just look at china right now, and what happening there! Stop being hypercrits and acting like Islam is the only religion which has a violent past connected to it.

Errmmmm have you ever read anything about the crusades or do you rely solely on the guardian for your history?

The crusades came after FOUR HUNDRED YEARS of agression, invasion, slaving raids, occupation of European lands and almost constant violent expansion by islam.

It seems to me the Europeans were astonishingly patient in waiting for 400 years before retaliating.

its never ceased to amaze me, how people can justify their negative views on muslims simply because of the terrorist attacks. When the oklahoma bombing happened, i didnt hear all this regarding christians. I shouldnt do this but to quote Nick griffiths of the BNP " The asylum problem opened a door for us and 911 kicked it right off its hinges".

quote:

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there a thing called the Crusades which tried to force Christianity on the east?

Didn't Cromwell lead a civil war to try and attempt to wipe out christianity in england in the 17th century?

Didnt the british empire take (*coughForce*) christianity upon the countless countries and islands they took over and ruled?

The crusades came about because Christian pilgrims to bethlehem and Jerusalem were being attacked.
Oliver Cromwell was a Puritan - the last thing on his mend was to wipe out Chritianity.
The British colonial govt. in places such as India were hostile to missionaries, and tried to discourage them. They didn't want the local population to think they were going to be forced to vhange their religion.

The history of islam is very different - you really should read up on it.

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there a thing called the Crusades which tried to force Christianity on the east?

Didn't Cromwell lead a civil war to try and attempt to wipe out christianity in england in the 17th century?

Didnt the british empire take (*coughForce*) christianity upon the countless countries and islands they took over and ruled?

I find it hilarious how non-muslims always go on and on and on about the violent history behind islam (not that im an expert on that matter), but completely ignore the violent history of england concerning religion, and how most of the world are only christians because the British Empire forced into upon them.

I seriously doubt there is a single religion in existance that has not been connected to or used violence to spread its word.

[/QUOTE]
Well Si, that doen't add much to the agrument. The Crusades were about freeing Jerusalem and the spiritual home of Christianity and Judeism - the 'Holy Land'. They had nothing to do with spreading christianity per se.

Oliver Cromwell. England had faced repeated attempts to re-introduce Roman Catholism over 'Protestanism'

You couldn't have been more wrong about India. The long history of British involvement with India was because it actively cooperated with local rulers and their religions to further trade - no hostile invasions. The Establishment was horrified when Wm. Wilberforce, having finished his campaign to abolish slavery, then turned his attention on trying to convert Hindus to Christianity and in particular abolish 'suttee'. His well meaning but misguided interventions, and those of his followers led the local population and some parts of the Bengal army to believe that the British Establishment was trying to destroy Indian social, religious and cultural traditions. This led to what is known as the 'Indian Mutiny', a military uprising caused by mutineeing local troops, which was sparked off by the introduction of new weapons.

OK

It's never a good idea to base any argument on such obviously incorrect facts.

However, I do agree with you. Organised religion of every type has been responsible for more killings and atrocities throughout history than almost anything else. Organised religion has very little to do with faith, or belief in God but lots to do with politics and control. Fortunately for religious leaders stupid, ill-informed, blinkered fundamentalists follow dogma like unquestioning sheep, and do their dirty work for them because they are too stupid to do otherwise, whether Christians, Muslims or any other religion.

I think that was your point Si? If yes, I agree with you.

Palestine is a country! 'isreal' is an oppressive bandit state!

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
The wars all seem to be directed at majority muslim countries: Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine These aren't countries - these are provinces., Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leka Nosht:
Palestine is a country! 'isreal' is an oppressive bandit state![QUOTE]

Yes and I can see the flying pigs now.

I cannot believe that the wearing of a (usually black) face and body covering is 'ordained by God'. It is an abuse of women and a weak religious excuse to render them powerless and to remove their God given individuality.
The bulk of westerners will never accept what many perceive to be gross oppression and Muslims who are unhappy our real dislike of their funereal garb (and other aspects of Islam such as brutal Sharia Law) should return to live in their own Muslim countries.
All of those who express hatred towards western society ought, also, to be deported.

quote:

Originally posted by Leka Nosht:
Palestine is a country! 'isreal' is an oppressive bandit state!

Actually the Romans merged the province of Judea with Galilee and named it Palaistina. Mostly to erase any Jewish ownership.

It always has been a Jewish area, there was never a state called Palestine and there is no such ethnic identity as Palestinian. Sorry kiddo.

no fair enough about it. 9/11 and 7/7, rotten botched up drugged attack at the good people of Scotland is unnacceptable. No escuses and the lot in the docks recently banging on about doing it in the name of allah....

quote:

Originally posted by annabella1:
I cannot believe that the wearing of a (usually black) face and body covering is 'ordained by God'. It is an abuse of women and a weak religious excuse to render them powerless and to remove their God given individuality.
The bulk of westerners will never accept what many perceive to be gross oppression and Muslims who are unhappy our real dislike of their funereal garb (and other aspects of Islam such as brutal Sharia Law) should return to live in their own Muslim countries.
All of those who express hatred towards western society ought, also, to be deported.

It is quite sad in the bright and vibrant West to see only the females covered up in such an unfair way. Whilst the blokes can dress in modern ways. I feel very sorry for the little girls who are covered up from age about 10.....really unfair. Feel so sorry for them.

quote:

Originally posted by dandini:
I feel very sorry for the little girls who are covered up from age about 10.....really unfair. Feel so sorry for them.

I feel sorry for all children who happen to have parents that impose their religious beliefs upon them....but I don't consider myself as having the right to prevent it.

quote:

Do muslims deserve to be treated this way?

As guilty as the North Vietnamese were for the "Gulf of Tolkin" incident.

Greetings annabella1,

Thank you for your post.

quote:

Originally posted by annabella1:
I cannot believe that the wearing of a (usually black) face and body covering is 'ordained by God'.

There is a difference of opinion amongst the scholars of Islam pertaining to the wearing of the face veil (or 'Niqab') by Muslim women. The majority of Muslim scholars do not see it as an obligation.

quote:

Originally posted by annabella1:
It is an abuse of women and a weak religious excuse to render them powerless and to remove their God given individuality.

You will find that many Muslim women actually want to wear the veil as they believe it to be either an obligation, or view it as something for which Allah will reward them. If you visit some Islamic forums (and there are many of them on the web), you can ask the Muslim women themselves and they will be more than happy to give you their views on it.

However, you would be correct in saying that it is also used to abuse women (with the example of the Taliban). In this regard, I feel it is very important to make the distinction between the actions of some Muslims and the teachings of Islam. That Muslims act in this manner is not from the teachings of Islam. You will find no verse in the Qur'an, nor any authentic quotations of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) condoning that type of behaviour.

quote:

Originally posted by annabella1:
...(and other aspects of Islam such as brutal Sharia Law) should return to live in their own Muslim countries.

I can certainly understand why you might view Sharia law as being brutal, but I would propose that you may be ill-informed about many aspects of Sharia law. There are a great deal of misconceptions about it, so if you have any questions in this regard, feel free to ask me.

quote:

Originally posted by annabella1:
All of those who express hatred towards western society ought, also, to be deported.

Personally, I think that hatred should not be expressed by anybody towards western society. That is my personal belief. However, I was under the impression that freedom of expression is one the many freedoms valued by those living in the west. Can you possibly clarify on this?

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Whizz:

quote:

Originally posted by dandini:
I feel very sorry for the little girls who are covered up from age about 10.....really unfair. Feel so sorry for them.

I feel sorry for all children who happen to have parents that impose their religious beliefs upon them....but I don't consider myself as having the right to prevent it.

O.k. but yhy do we need religion?....I manage very well without it thanks.

Ooops.....Why.

Ooops...'why'

sorry...'why'

I wouldn't say we deserve to be treated and looked at the way we are. But at the end of the day, it's simply because of the way certain Muslims have acted.