I have to say that I was horrified to watch the Dispatches programme on immigration. I was not from any of the groups that Ch4 decided to single out for attack or commendation, but as someone who has a heritage from one of Britain's former colonies I think the truth that reveals itself in this programme is with the programme makers' showing their dirty heritage - those ugly colonial practices that we thought had been discredited with the fall of the Nazis. What were these practices? - Imposing 'scientifically' derived identities on people (e.g. the Malays are lazy, the Chinese are hard working, the Sinhalese are Aryans and therefore peaceful, the Tamils are non Aryans and therefore violent, etc), divide and rule, and socially engineering the best use out of the natives to build British control over the world. That is the Inconvenient Truth, that Britain has never stopped believing in Aryan supremacy, in its god-given heritage to rule the rest of the world (today with the help of its cousins in America), to tell other countries how to structure their countries (so that it keeps Britain in power over them) and if they don't take the advice, to punish them. When are we going to get the Inconvenient Truth about how Britain continues to manipulate the peoples in the world according to racial categorisation - it doesn't just do it in the UK, it does it everywhere it can get its dirty mits on, and that means everywhere. Dispatches should own up to the British racist view of the world's people, how they categorise us according to what use we are to them economically, militarily, politically and then force the exodus of refugees from their own countries because of these practices of social engineering - why do you think refugees come to this country - because this country destroyed their countries and is still destroying their countries, they don't enjoy being humiliated every day of their lives living here - pat on the head for being a good boy and paying lots more in taxes, a whack with a stick for needing help with the children. If we could live peacefully and prosperously in our own countries we would - but the Brits won't let us will they? Why don't you turn the camera on yourselves Dispatches team, and see what nastiness lies in your Aryan supremacist hearts - clearly the war on terror has done a lot for making racism respectable again.
Unfortunately - just a quick glance through this Ch4 news forum will tell any decent thinking person that 'The British' are clearly the least xenophobic and racist race in the world.
'The British' are constantly being run-down and abused - and accused of being racists and people who hate or discriminate against other cultures - but expecially Muslims...
These claims are not backed up with anything other than comments like "You lot are racist because you call people foreigner and you notice that certain other cultures are not very nice towards you or your country".
The UK is a country that is seriously overcrowded. We have pockets of seriously deprived areas. We have a serious housing shortage.
We spend an enormous amount of public money on translating everything into hundreds of languages. We give all residents the right to a free education and a free health system. We supply extra tuition for immigrant children. We supply Social Security Benefits and housing [I repeat - we do have a severe housing shortage in this country - but we still welcome immigrants]. I cannot fathom how anybody in their right mind would accuse the UK of being a racist country... it is very depressing indeed to realise just how nasty other cultures can be towards others who are helping them
Immigrants clearly wish to come to the UK because it will make them somewhat better off than they will be in their own country .
The people who are already resident in the UK [no matter who they are] cannot keep shouldering the burden of all of the world's unemployed and unemployables - we do not have any more room in the country to build any more housing - we cannot give up any more of our green spaces and our infrastructure cannot handle any extra traffic or usage.
Just think about what you've said lynnkx - Britain has exported more people than virtually any other nation in the world - British people went to North America in huge numbers, to South Africa, to Australia and to New Zealand to name but a few - where they became drains on the economy, exporting the natural resources, forcing people away from providing for their own families into providing for the British coffers. They took land away from everyone who was already living there, they were parasites on the local societies, and killed local people off in large numbers. No immigrants have done that coming to this country! Even today there are more people who leave Britain to live elsewhere than there are people who come here to live. The Dispatches programme was inflammatory - you can see from some of the other posts elsewhere on the Channel 4 site how many people now hate immigrants even more than before because of it. Its views about people are not to do with their humanity, but only to do with their economic use to the country. They never stop seeing us as mules labouring for them. In the world every single civil war and war between countries has British involvement today, selling arms, manipulating who they want to win (more frequently than not the bad guys), getting political favours, and ensuring British political interests are met. Nothing about humanity. If English people care about what is done in their name here and abroad to destroy the humanity of non white people then they should rile against such nasty programme making. The images the programme reinforced stereotypes, it did not challenge them. A lot of the seriously deprived and depressed areas in this country were brought to vibrant economic life with the influx of immigrants, including refugees - see the before and after pictures. But that's the Inconvenient Truth that Dispatches didn't delve into at all.
British history and current politics is a given Redfish but we must deal with the current situation. In History the Brits, spanish, portugese and americans were 'good' at empire building/ripping resources from other nations. Now you seem to say that they reap the rewards of past errors. Fine however you neglect the fact that current immigration levels are a concern to all brits white and non white alike. This is not the US, Canada or the Russian territories which I guess could take rapid increases in immigration even if it meant expanding infrastructures etc. This is an Island with limits ie the sea, a white elephant of an NHS and under funded social housing system.
Also the stereotypes are backed up by figures. I recall on these newspages posters complaining that C4 were pampering to certain groups by continuously showing docus etc depicting good immigrants!!! Lets not pull out race cards just because we don't like the message like so many of the bigoted indigenous is inclined to.
I am not against immigration, looking after a few asylum seekers, economic migrants who can add to the pot. However with current tax trends the average man is being asked to carry an ever increasing burden. He has no chance of social housing as he will never be needy enough, if he works and finds it difficult to pay his bills and local taxes he can in some cases be close to abject poverty... Whilst those in social housing and on benefits are secure, if this chap falls behind the LA can go after him for not keeping up with his council tax - I believe there is a jail term! Social housing, and benefits were not meant for the masses they were designed for the few in need. If we continue with an intake of groups who are in the medium term unable to work and need assistance for whatever reason it is the average working man who will be taxed to his limits, in some cases out of his house. Adding more taxes to his shoulders is irresponsible and I would suggest could lead to anarchy - especially when he sees others receiving subsidies whilst his work is not enough to cover him and his family. We get nothing in life for free - many should heed this as it was the ethos of many immigrants of old - the Jews, Irish, WIs etc... saw work and education as the answer to their problems to most 'claiming' was a shame! They also never allowed anyone to see them as mules, they refused to live up to the stereotypes.
Originally posted by Redfish: Just think about what you've said lynnkx - Britain has exported more people than virtually any other nation in the world - British people went to North America in huge numbers, to South Africa, to Australia and to New Zealand to name but a few - where they became drains on the economy, exporting the natural resources, forcing people away from providing for their own families into providing for the British coffers. They took land away from everyone who was already living there, they were parasites on the local societies, and killed local people off in large numbers. No immigrants have done that coming to this country! Even today there are more people who leave Britain to live elsewhere than there are people who come here to live. The Dispatches programme was inflammatory - you can see from some of the other posts elsewhere on the Channel 4 site how many people now hate immigrants even more than before because of it. Its views about people are not to do with their humanity, but only to do with their economic use to the country. They never stop seeing us as mules labouring for them. In the world every single civil war and war between countries has British involvement today, selling arms, manipulating who they want to win (more frequently than not the bad guys), getting political favours, and ensuring British political interests are met. Nothing about humanity. If English people care about what is done in their name here and abroad to destroy the humanity of non white people then they should rile against such nasty programme making. The images the programme reinforced stereotypes, it did not challenge them. A lot of the seriously deprived and depressed areas in this country were brought to vibrant economic life with the influx of immigrants, including refugees - see the before and after pictures. But that's the Inconvenient Truth that Dispatches didn't delve into at all.
Firstly - it may surprise you that I always think about it before I write it - although I appreciate some others do not bother to
Secondly - I understood that this thread is about current day - ie 2007 - not 1707 or earlier
Thirdly - the Dispatches programme was being realistic. We do not have any room in this country - as a quick glance at the living conditions/space available to any citizen of the USA or Australia will tell any fair-minded person.
Finally - the programme did not say that anybody with a non-white skin was a drain on the country. It said that it is a drain on the country to let in the world's unemployed and unemployables just to do our menial low-paid jobs. IE - it actually implied that the immigration laxness in the UK is akin to legalised slavery in that immigrants with no skills are encouraged to enter the UK to fill up low-paid menial jobs when we have enough people in the country to fill those jobs already!
The only points I can understand from your post is that you hate the British and the UK govt.
Originally posted by Redfish: Just think about what you've said lynnkx - Britain has exported more people than virtually any other nation in the world - British people went to North America in huge numbers, to South Africa, to Australia and to New Zealand to name but a few - where they became drains on the economy, exporting the natural resources, forcing people away from providing for their own families into providing for the British coffers. They took land away from everyone who was already living there, they were parasites on the local societies, and killed local people off in large numbers. No immigrants have done that coming to this country! Even today there are more people who leave Britain to live elsewhere than there are people who come here to live. The Dispatches programme was inflammatory - you can see from some of the other posts elsewhere on the Channel 4 site how many people now hate immigrants even more than before because of it. Its views about people are not to do with their humanity, but only to do with their economic use to the country. They never stop seeing us as mules labouring for them. In the world every single civil war and war between countries has British involvement today, selling arms, manipulating who they want to win (more frequently than not the bad guys), getting political favours, and ensuring British political interests are met. Nothing about humanity. If English people care about what is done in their name here and abroad to destroy the humanity of non white people then they should rile against such nasty programme making. The images the programme reinforced stereotypes, it did not challenge them. A lot of the seriously deprived and depressed areas in this country were brought to vibrant economic life with the influx of immigrants, including refugees - see the before and after pictures. But that's the Inconvenient Truth that Dispatches didn't delve into at all.
Redfish,why have'nt you migrated to one of those filthy rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or any of those petrol dollar stuffed Muslim countries in the Middle East where I am sure you'll have some affinity with, in term of spirituality or otherwise. For that matter why have'nt you migrated to Malaysia or Indonesia if you think they are very hard working, welcoming to all refugees and immigrants and you do not have to work like a mule there. Why you have choosen the UK instead if you think it is such a racist country?
You mentioned humanity and racism. Just look at Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and their rich neighbours, even with their abundance of petrol dollars have you ever seen them doing more to elevate the poors in Palestine or Africa? You would have thought they could have accepted much more Palestanian refugees to elevate their poverty and plight. No, the Palestanians refugees are the least welcome there, in fact, these filthy oil rich countries prefer to stuffed their houses, airports, shops and every conceivable work places with low paid foreign workers who are literally mules there and who would not even have a chance of becoming permanent residents there no matter how useful or how many years of your lives you have contributed there. What do you say to that then? Just to remind you, I am not a Aryan, but it was the "White Westerner" who dug out all those oil for the Arabs to make them rich in the first place. Otherwise, they might be still be riding their camels roaming the deserts, and living in their tents today.
Whether the Chinese, Indians etc. are more hard working than the Malays, unfortunately or fortunately economic statistics from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, India when compared to that of, say, Indonesia and Malaysia speak for itself.
Don't be like some of my hypocritical Muslim associates who were not even born here. On one hand, they forever cried they were being vitimised and treated like "second class" citizens in the UK but they still prefer to live here and never shown any sign of wanting to return to their original Muslim contries. Why? Because they are no difference from those Muslim politicians in Indonesia and Malaysia who continued to condem foreign or British Colonial influence, but borrow virtually every modern and scientific words from English or their colonial master languages, bearing in mind that less than a century ago there was no written Malay language exist even. Like the last PM of Malaysia, Dr. Mahathia who obtained his education in Australia to become a doctor, decided to abandon English as one of the main stream languages taught in the schools. He only found out, almost thirty years later, that the Malays who do not know English or other languages are literally useless when they were overseas or try to compete internationally in any field. Similar policies also being practiced in Indonesia. However, those elite Malay politicians only preach one thing to their citizens at home but secretly they all sent their children overseas to study, of course, you guess it, all to Englisg speaking countries. So that their children, just like Dr Mahathia, have abundant advantages and control over those folks educated at home who have little chance of knowing much else outside their countries. Redfish, what do you call that then? Is'nt it a very typical example of those muslim Malay politician from the South East Asia regions? How about the Malaysian muslim Malay who dominate the political scene but consists only about 50% of the population in Malaysia, give virtually 100% of government post and jobs, large tender contracts, university places to all the muslim Malay, NOT BASED ON ANY MERIT, but still extract more than 50% of the taxes from the non-Malay citizens. Don't you think these Malay politicians have to thank the British colonism for their skill and racism.
You seemed an educated person who at least has experienced more than one culture on this earth and yet you spit at your host country like this is the last place you would like to come. Then why not leave the UK for a more suitable country in the Middle East or South East Asia and try barking at those injustices there.
to tell other countries how to structure their countries ....... and if they don't take the advice, to punish them.
mmmmm. There is a religious group in our midst who would applaud this! This line of thought has also been actively pursued by the World Bank and the IMF - punishment being economic in those instances.
So many people convinced their way is the only way - along the one-size-fits-all lines - that it's scary.
Its amazing how we are suppose to put up and shut up to the racist tones of Redfish's post, in that all British are slave driving,grabbing monsters.We are suppose to accept that every one else is a victim when faced with a Britisher. Slavery was an example. The British people as a WHOLE are supposed to accept complete responsibility for this, when possibly over 97% of the population or more didnt even know what it was at the time let alone employ it. They were too busy going up chimneys, working in hell hole factories just trying to get a crust of bread themselves.While the middle class were inventing alsorts of things to make life easier for everyone around the world. This what built Britain, its own people.
Most of these places that Redfish says the British grabbed were just lumps of rock and dust before the British went there.
Probably not. It's always been within british people to stereotype, but that is generalising because it isn't only the brits who do that, most people do the same thing - so, human nature.
However on the subject of colonialism, I wouldn't think anyone would even consider that in this day and age. We all speak the same language and the colonised are wiser and fierce. Look at the Africans, they hail the likes of Mugabe and don't realise how he has damaged the country and his reasons behind his stategy had nothing to do with land reform, rather to try and get blacks (majority) to vote for him. Many Africans see him as a Hero for moving white farmers out. South Africans are following in the footsteps of land reform, and I'm sure many other African countries will do the same if they aren't doing so already. In short - colonialism will remain in the dark ages.
Interesting how some of you think I must be a Muslim to post stuff about neo colonialism. I am not, I was born an atheist and have always been one. Most socialists talked about neocolonialism, until the Soviet Union broke apart and they realised Russia had itself been a coloniser. Neo colonialism is prevalent throughout the world today, you can't sweep history under the carpet, what we have today was built and is still being built on the foundations of colonialism, which is why we still have the concept of neocolonialism taught in political science departments at universities everywhere. Iraq is a case in point, if you listen to Iraqis about what UK and the US have done to their country it is heartbreaking. No UK or US reporter is ever so frank, whatever their views.
Yes, I am sure you would like me to emigrate to another country, so that you could all keep Britain white, but Britain is the place I was born and lived virtually all my life and I have a right to criticise the empire under which I had no choice but to live. Even if I did go abroad, the dirty long hand of imperialism still oppresses, telling us how we should live our lives and bombing us if we don't, and even if we do, follow their dictates. Wake up to what is really happening in the world, it may make you feel sick, as it did me, when you realise you've been duped all this time, but at least you don't have to stay a dupe for all your life. The British have worked with the Americans to destroy Iraq for the Iraqis and many other countries around the world similarly. It's time we protested about that instead of accepting the status quo.
I find it peculiar that people are still willing to whine about superstitions widely dismissed 100 years ago and virtually extinguished in the past 2 decades, even with Britain now clearly being an avidly open and anti-racist society with plenty of movements to stop it and with a moderate immigration rate from it's ex-colonies. I get the impression you believe this is a contest to see who can create the most distorted view of reality so there is more attention and funding paid to your cause.
I have an idea, why not take an objective view of reality, realise you only make a mockery of anti-racism by pretending your are more oppressed than you really are and come up with realistic solutions to actuak problems rather than inflammatory solutions to non-existent problems.
The British have a shameful history of making huge assumptions and misjudging situations, like compartmentalising India etc we have stuck our foot in some issues we knew nothing about unlike the Romans we haven't got away with it.
But again with every situation you can either draw positives or negatives...same with anything. You get some lazy, aggressive types in all creeds and colours....we need to get over ourselves and so looking at the mistakes in the past only the triumphs and to learns from them!
It seems to me (from reading your posts) that the worst racists are the people who come to live here and are racist against the British people. IMO if people want to come to Britain they should be prepared to be British whatever their colour.
My first grandchild is due in December and it is a boy!!!
There have been some interesting discussions circulating in this forum surrounding the dispatchers show on immigration. I am sad to say I had hoped the show would bring an informed discussion to the growing public panic, it did not. In both last weeks and this weeks show we saw a clear representation of a number of things:
1. A POINT OF VIEW that immigration is altering this country, negatively.
2. A POINT OF VIEW that immigration leads to segregation.
3. A POINT OF VIEW that the 'immigrant identity' is applicable to anyone who's family came to this country within a 100 year period. Even here though the show confused the understanding of an identity.... at one point it illustrated how british citizens where choosing their immigrant family identity over a native british one.... Last time I checked construction of an 'identity' was not one-dimensional and encompassed many cultural, political and religious values.
4. A POINT OF VIEW of what multiculturalism is. The show confused the term multicultural society and multiculturalism.... a distinction that it didn't make, and confused. This resulted in a confused survey, attacking a concept it has no understanding of.
I have 3 main problems with these observations and arguments;
1. It is reductionalist; the show hopes to illustrate too much on a topic as complex as immigration. In this process it fallen into the trap of just showing one point of view...this is bad journalism.
2. It is unproductive; where are the discussions on solutions to this forecast of segregation? The show became an immigrant/settled immigrant (whatever these are!!) 'show and tell,' a commentary on a point of view, constructed like joining full stops together in an book. An unproductive procedure that really doesn't tell us anything...again, this is bad journalism.
3. It is confused; who are these 'immigrants?' The show regularly confused british citizens, regardless of where their family 'came from,' with, so called, new immigrants (I think its important to point out that some of these 'immigrants' where asylum seekers, there is a big difference, they are escaping persecution). For any understanding to be created this distinction should of been made, it was not (even if the show did use the term 'settled immigrant,' it still confused the concept it was trying to use)....again, bad journalism
The issues this nation faces is understanding the diversities within it, not rejecting them. The show is aiming to create a space for this, and I commend that, however it has filled the space with a negative, empty point of view without solution or debate....I hope next weeks show will be more productive....I hope.
1. A POINT OF VIEW that immigration is altering this country, negatively. there is overwhelming evidence that immigration is causing economic, social and political problems
2. A POINT OF VIEW that immigration leads to segregation. No, the pojnt is that multiculturalism leads to segregation 3. A POINT OF VIEW that the 'immigrant identity' is applicable to anyone who's family came to this country within a 100 year period. Even here though the show confused the understanding of an identity.... at one point it illustrated how british citizens where choosing their immigrant family identity over a native british one.... Last time I checked construction of an 'identity' was not one-dimensional and encompassed many cultural, political and religious values. we all have our definitions of "identity". The key point is that many people in Britain today are loyal to some community thousands of miles away or some alien religion rather than the British nation 4. A POINT OF VIEW of what multiculturalism is. The show confused the term multicultural society and multiculturalism.... a distinction that it didn't make, and confused. This resulted in a confused survey, attacking a concept it has no understanding of. It was not in the least confused; stop trying to create smokescreens. One thing that is patently obvious by now is that people can co-exist peacefully only when cultural differences between them are relatively minor. If some people eat chips and others eat rice, we can celebrate diversity. If some people believe in gay rights, and others think that gays should be thrown off cliffs, you have a recipe for violence and oppression. That is where Britain is now - the enthusiasm for mass immigration and multiculuralism has created the conditions for an explosion - just as Enoch Powell predicted
tarw, this is the kind of debate I had hoped to encourage and the kind of debate that should of exist on a show that surrounds a 'grey' subject such as immigration.
I wanted to illustrate that my interpretation of the show was a series of 'points of view.' While I disagree with some of your responses to my interpretations, I feel I should reiterate that the show is clearly not presenting solutions or debate, it is presenting a problem as fact rather than 'a point of view' to be discussed. This can only escalate the divisions within society not resolve them.
I stand by what I said, it is confusing the complicated makeup of identity, citizenship and multiculturalism.
A show like this is part of a step forward to create a space for the discussion on immigration. It should be a space of discussion not stereotypes and reductionalist fact finding.
- although I appreciate some others do not bother to
