Strewth I guess big brother is on again, this forum is slower than a snail in a headwind,going up an incline!
To the point of this post tonight's 'In God's Name:An examination of the increasing influence of Christian fundamentalists,following politically active Christian groups that are emerging as a significant voice in British politics.
After scenes of small children being indoctrinated into the "praise the lord,but don't ask questions" system,we had the people seemingly well founded on one level,the right to life anti-abortion. But quite horrified at their ignorance of Islam in their statements (which I will not say here, you'll have to see a repeat). "The earth is 4 to 10,000 years old" is a composite statement of that subject by these people! It was also noted they had nothing to say about the bio-genetics programmes that are ongoing,and in the news every day.If, as they are portayed as fundamental Christians, surely playing around with Human genetics is another sin worthy of campaigning against.
I doubt I would be surprised at who funds this "straw man" movement.
Investigate 'Common Purpose'
"The people will believe what the media tells them they believe." George Orwell
It is such a hard topic to discuss really because people with such strong beliefs (as shown) are not open to debate and discussion. The production team did make a good programme however I feel sorry for the subject as it clearly showed a lack of want for knowledge but this comes up in every religion. This overall was educating as it shows people who do not see the bigger picture of secular society.
I thought the numbers of active Christian fundamentalists was exaggerated. The programme featured just three activists and the crowds that demonstrated with them were clearly very tiny and mostly elderly. No evidence of a gathering movement.
The most disturbing report was from that Bristol school which taught religious claptrap in place of science. Doesn't the government have ANY control over what private schools choose to call an education? Children are obliged to receive an education in this country by law and what I saw did not seem to qualify.
True, there weren't many shown, but evangelical churches which often have some pretty strong fundamentalist beliefs do seem to be growing in this country. Its a serious change to the religious fabric of Britain, although perhaps a "Look, the weirdos now speak with British accents" approach (yes, I know it was more measured than that) wasn't the best approach. I'd like to see a show that addressed changes in the religious make-up of the UK since the 1960s at some point (the decline in Anglicanism, Muslim communities and hardliners, the growth of evangelical churches).
I agree their numbers are pretty small, but they are very active and committed. These people will push and push because they truely believe they are doing what God wants. They also claim to speak for a large number of christians. While the vast majority of christians would be pro-life I doubt they would be so keen on the bigotry and the dinosuars were on the ark crap. These people will happily claim to represent a silent majority of christians, but try asking them what they think about the far larger numbers of christians that don't completely agree with their beliefs.... Some of it can make what they said about Islam look quite mild...
In part at least they recived money from US fundamentalists (not some shadowy illuminatae - better described as faddish management training for 00's - which for the rest of us usually means higher management have just pee'd the training budget up the wall).
"Beware he who would control your access to information for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
"One world, one people; under no gods and no nations."
I thought it was a good film in its limited way. Of course it could have gone further and interviewed more people but as a kind of fly-on-the-wall doc it was revealing and interesting. I liked the way C4 prefaced each programme segment with a viewer warning about the offensive views on show. I'm guessing that the participants in the show now regret having taken part, because most of them came over as a mixture of being barking mad, sad, infantile individuals, even though the show bent over backwards not to portray them as such.
The fundy lies and dishonesty were finely illustrated every time the 6000-year-old earth question was brought up, but I was astonished to see this written down in a "science" book about the moon. The government surely needs to make a visit to that primary school in Bristol (?) and fire a few people.
The mad/bad tables were turned during interesting clashes between the show's political correctness towards Islam and the fundies' own, more accurate view of that, ahem, yet-to-be enlightened religion. Hilarious that the Xtian fundies recognise the danger of Islam but cannot apply the same reasoning to their own unreconstructed delusions.
Yes their number are small but their access to power is out of proportion to their numbers and in a democratic society that is worrying.
Having charitable status, their 'schools' are effectively subsidised by the tax payer. A status which I think ought to be challenged.
--- The scientist yearns to find and eventually know the truth; The religious man wants the truth to fit his preconceived mould. So, as a result... The scientist alters his perception to conform to the facts;The religious man tries to change the facts to conform to his beliefs.
The faith school thing is a Bush/Blair concoction. Seeing those little kids being totally brainwashed by these fundaMENTALists was disgrace. And a Labour Government supports them.
Originally posted by blast99: The fundy lies and dishonesty were finely illustrated every time the 6000-year-old earth question was brought up, but I was astonished to see this written down in a "science" book about the moon. The government surely needs to make a visit to that primary school in Bristol (?) and fire a few people.
Something strangely satisfying about watching the female fundy squirm when the question of the age of the earth was raised with her. She clearly couldn't rationalise the argument in her own mind, which was pretty disturbing.
Originally posted by Etta: Something strangely satisfying about watching the female fundy squirm when the question of the age of the earth was raised with her. She clearly couldn't rationalise the argument in her own mind, which was pretty disturbing. E
Unfortunately that moment was ruined for me by the interviwers own scientific incompetence. He clearly understood this was one of their weak spots, but seemed to have utterly faield to acquaint himself with the arguments.
As for the featured "science" book I'm afraid to say it dosen't shock me. That kind of cobblers is pretty much standard fair for "biblically centred" teaching materials from the states. A particularly shocking/hilarious Q&A test from a well known US writer (I forget her name) of homeschooling history materials, with a very much blinkered fundamentalist christian POV, includes a question that essentially asks the child to identify heretical/apostate christians they know of in the modern world!
"Beware he who would control your access to information for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
"One world, one people; under no gods and no nations."
Originally posted by Etta: Something strangely satisfying about watching the female fundy squirm when the question of the age of the earth was raised with her. She clearly couldn't rationalise the argument in her own mind, which was pretty disturbing. E
Unfortunately that moment was ruined for me by the interviewers own scientific incompetence. He clearly understood this was one of their weak spots, but seemed to have utterly failed to acquaint himself with the arguments.
I disagree. The purpose of the program was to expose their growing political influence. If the interviewer had spent his time challenging their beliefs they would have terminated the interview and that would be the end of the program. Far better to let the viewer do that themselves.
Sometimes the more effective way to challenge a view is to let the viewer make up their own mind. No one needs to persuade you or me that they were talking nonsense; those who do need to be convinced are likely to have sided with the fundamentalists if their arguments were too effectively demolished - out of sympathy for the poor beleaguered under-dog. Logic does not win arguments with religious people but emotion sometimes does.
Its lovely to see big brother controlling the boards here. I replied to this topic yesterday and seem to have been chucked out - obviously the controllers are Stalinist and probably Christian hardly any fun-dermentalists. All I did was to simply compare them to be as bad, if not worse then the BNP. Ooooops, sorry there I go again - well it was lovely to have my last taste of free speech whilst I could.
Why do we NEED to know why people are straight or gay?
Why do we NEED to know why people are transexula or tranvestite?
You do know exactly WHAT a transexual is, don`t you?
However, I think you`re right in that we do need to know if paedophilia is genetic. But absolutly NONE of the other things you`ve mentioned is at all relevent.
******************************** John Smith: So what am I then? Nothing. I`m just a story.
Doctor: You`re an echo. That`s all. A TimeLord is so much more. A sum of knowledge; a code. A shared history. A shared suffering. Only it`s gone now, all of it. Gone forever.
Originally posted by asdflkj: Yes their number are small but their access to power is out of proportion to their numbers and in a democratic society that is worrying.
Having charitable status, their 'schools' are effectively subsidised by the tax payer. A status which I think ought to be challenged.
--- The scientist yearns to find and eventually know the truth; The religious man wants the truth to fit his preconceived mould. So, as a result... The scientist alters his perception to conform to the facts;The religious man tries to change the facts to conform to his beliefs.
I think your end quote hits the nail on the head, in which case most people in the world find it more important to get a self gratifying explanation of the world than an objective one.
Before I get too arrogant, I should mention that I was indoctrinated at one of these faith schools, and it took far too long for the penny to drop and realise the Earth could never be 6000 years old!
I still live amongst less vocal christian fundamentalists. I don't perceive them as evil, rather as misguided. One can't underestimate their sheer determination to believe the above and similar delusions.
Originally posted by asdflkj: Yes their number are small but their access to power is out of proportion to their numbers and in a democratic society that is worrying.
Having charitable status, their 'schools' are effectively subsidised by the tax payer. A status which I think ought to be challenged.
--- The scientist yearns to find and eventually know the truth; The religious man wants the truth to fit his preconceived mould. So, as a result... The scientist alters his perception to conform to the facts;The religious man tries to change the facts to conform to his beliefs.
I think your end quote hits the nail on the head, in which case most people in the world find it more important to get a self gratifying explanation of the world than an objective one.
Before I get too arrogant, I should mention that I was indoctrinated at one of these faith schools, and it took far too long for the penny to drop and realise the Earth could never be 6000 years old!
I still live amongst less vocal christian fundamentalists. I don't perceive them as evil, rather as misguided. One can't underestimate their sheer determination to believe the above and similar delusions.
Everything which you believe that science tells you about the age of rocks and artefacts, fossils, coal, oil, etc, can all be explained by the extreme conditions during the flood. It didn't just rain a lot, you know.
What time is it, Mr Woolf? Time to mend your ways, for the end is nigh.
This appalling "science" teaching in independent faith schools apparently cannot be stopped, as according to EU human rights legislation, parents have a right to have their children taught how they want. I recently conducted a mini-campaign by taking this issue up with OfSTED, Dept of Education, local MPs, etc, but was just brushed off. The government welcomes such schools as part of their commitment to "religious diversity" in education. It's time these schools were outlawed, as it's not just a matter of different teaching methods, but teaching FICTION as FACT. We need to outlaw these schools, just as Sweden has done.
And by the way, the idea of a global flood accounting for the geological record is plain nonsense, and was recognized as such even by early Christian geologists! Organisations like Answers in Genesis continue to spew forth lies and misinformation, and unfortunately there will always be a gullible audience to hear them.
Good posts here,but the signature of Chairmaker is especially intriging to me.
quote:
Originally posted by The_Chairmaker: I agree their numbers are pretty small, but they are very active and committed. These people will push and push because they truely believe they are doing what God wants. They also claim to speak for a large number of christians. While the vast majority of christians would be pro-life I doubt they would be so keen on the bigotry and the dinosuars were on the ark crap. These people will happily claim to represent a silent majority of christians, but try asking them what they think about the far larger numbers of christians that don't completely agree with their beliefs.... Some of it can make what they said about Islam look quite mild...
In part at least they recived money from US fundamentalists (not some shadowy illuminatae - better described as faddish management training for 00's - which for the rest of us usually means higher management have just pee'd the training budget up the wall).
I believe the Christian church has been usurped by the Alpha Group teachings,this is the type of thing we saw with in the classroom with those tots. They also do the chanting,and the holy spirit/posession (sp) thing,and am told they push the Romans 13? of "God appoints the rulers,they should always be obeyed" pp meme.
Looks like they're set up by the big boys to be brought down quite easily in the future to me!
Chairmaker could you explain your signature: "One world, one people; under no gods and no nations." and what it means to you please?
Investigate 'Common Purpose'
"The people will believe what the media tells them they believe." George Orwell
Originally posted by deft_lie_lo: One world................etc.
IMAGINE!
Funny you should mention 'Imagine',I'm sure you realise all popular mediums are backed by those contriving a designed consciousness of the public mindset. In Imagines case "no walls between us" & "no religion too" is a promotion of a One world Government,but they don't tell you the bad bits associated with it.
What say you deft_li_lo?
Investigate 'Common Purpose'
"The people will believe what the media tells them they believe." George Orwell
I'm not particularly worried that these fundamentalists have a voice - or that they have some pretty detestable notions of humanity in a modern world, but what I am worried about is the fact that the majority in this country - those who couldn't care less about religious nuttery have so far remained silent.
It's about time the sane, rational thinkers of this country stood up and used their collective voice to put an end to this growing sham. If not then we cannot be surprised if we find ourselves being governed by these nuts.
Apathy could ultimately be the death of rationalism!
Use your voice and use your vote - but use it wisely!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.” Douglas Adams
Originally posted by The_Chairmaker: Unfortunately that moment was ruined for me by the interviewers own scientific incompetence. He clearly understood this was one of their weak spots, but seemed to have utterly failed to acquaint himself with the arguments.
I disagree. The purpose of the program was to expose their growing political influence. If the interviewer had spent his time challenging their beliefs they would have terminated the interview and that would be the end of the program. Far better to let the viewer do that themselves.
Basically the guy equated the age of the Earth with carbon dating, which is simlpy incorrect and what makes it worse is that equating the problems of carbon dating and the age of the Earth is a creationist strawman. Pretty sloppy IMO. As for their growing political influence I think there is definte mileage in investigating just how many voters they represent. The street preacher at the beginning was talking about "a silent [christian] majority". These people like to claim large scale backing, and on right to life that may ring true, but on the other stuff - lets put it this way: Operation Christian Vote and similar outfits have all died on their backsides in elections in this country.
As for the Alpha course I'm suspicious of them on the grounds that they seem a little too keen on merchandising and I have reservations about their charismatic/pentecostal leanings. As for the Romans 13 thing - pretty standard fair along with 'render unto Cesear' etc.
As for my sig' lets just say I'm a utopian tranhumansist, who believes humans are the last people who should be left in control of our society!
"Beware he who would control your access to information for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
"One world, one people; under no gods and no nations."
