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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:
God rewards those who let go of pride enough to trust that they don't know best and that God does.
Actually I would say it takes some pride to feel you are right in spite of a lack of real evidence. quote:
(+ that God uses the Bible to tell us, etc, etc...)
A circular argument and therefore total nonsense. |
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quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
Thanks for a frank answer; Pansnarrans has given a link of proof of evolution that can be observed. From your answer you require observable evolutionary evidence to stop believing in God - that has now happened so what are you going to do?
It's okay! I've tried to be frank throughout, it's great to be asked personal questions! I've looked at the link and it's prompted questions for me, but not convinced me.... I think the main thing is my view of "fully developed" species. The bacteria in that example are still bacteria even though they are different. It has demonstrated increased complexity resulting from evolution which is fascinating. And the line that it's one of the definitions of the E-coli species that has changed is very intersting indeed, but not knowing enough about bacteria and how "species" are defined I see another demonstartion, and a more comprehensive one, of how evolution works in the way that I am sure it does, but nothing to show that it is bigger than that. As with most things on here the starting point of God creating creatures after their kind is why I see it so differently, and also the hurdle I need to see taken down before I can accept evolution on the scale you insist I should. Say for bacteria to evolve and no longer be bacteria. For a monkey to develop an unmistakably human organ (yep, I know that's not how evolution works, but I can't think of a better way to say it!) or something along those lines in terms of common ancestors and the like. From a creationist point of view, God created everything within it's "kind" (whatever it means by that! Cat, dog, bacteria...) and there is a great variety and freedom for diversity and even development within those kinds, but not across them. quote: For me, I could no longer believe in god as the evidence just mounted until it reached tipping point. I however was not involved in a chritian church set up - so for me to switch away was relatively easy. Despite what you say, I cannot see how you can change. Good luck!
One of the themes I see in the Bible is of not getting caught up in the world around us, the here and now, but seeing into eternity. I know there's not evidence for it so it's not gonna go anywhere in terms of a debate here, but the whole point is the lack of evidence! The way God wants us to live, according to the Bible, is not with our eyes on the temporal, the here and now; and so the more you look at the world around that you can discern with your human abilities, the further you get from God's way. If somebody wants to live without God then God will let them go and allow them to. The Bible is clear on what the consequances are though. You see how everything you put to me and everything else said on here looks with that mindset. I hope I've not acted as that mindset would initially make it look like you should and debating with me hasn't been the preverbial brick wall all the way along!! But you see how even with all the evidence, all the faults, everything that's been thrown, it leaves me where I was to start with. Some evidence has stuck, some problems are unresolved. But with the sheer mass of stuff thrown at me and the relatively minute amount that - to my mind of course!! - has stayed in play the overall Christian stance still stands and works and the "outstanding" things are easily discountable (in terms of the full picture, not in the debate itself) as anomolies. For example, the one thing that historically grates with the gospels, the dates of Jesus' birth conflicting, could easily be some historical mistake - the first cencus being destroyed to cover up the massacre of the children perhaps, who knows. If 100 problems are thrown and 99 prove to be unfounded the 1 does still deserve strutiny of course, but the overall idea being challenged can take the 99 victories as a fair indication that the 1 is going to turn out to have been a misunderstanding. So yeah, I guess you're right in not seeing me changing as possible!! Funny that out of everyone here you've got who I am closest to the mark, I wouldn't have predicted that the way we started off!  |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:  There's a subtle difference! You generally don't have as much information to go on as when there's a book the size of the Bible to get the info from.
Yes there is a subtle difference but your conclusion from it is wrong as you are again making a false premise. In general, the more information that is given allows one to better assess the truth. However, you forget in your premise that a work of fiction will still be a work of fiction no matter how heavy the tome. In the case of an unsupported story the volume of words means nothing. quote:
And being gullible suggests you don't test things or think about them too much.
Sorry Alan but you cannot claim you have really tested the veracity of the bibles claims. You have admitted yourself that there is no real evidence to support it. You have to admit that it does contain verses which don't quite line up with what we know. Even if you don't accept these verses as conclusive evidence of errancy you must admit they do cast some doubt. Thinking about the overall aim and message of christ as given in the bible is all well and good but it doesn't make the story true. So, without objective evidence, in claiming the truth of the work you are showing you are gullible. |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:
It has demonstrated increased complexity resulting from evolution which is fascinating.
And the line that it's one of the definitions of the E-coli species that has changed is very intersting indeed, but not knowing enough about bacteria and how "species" are defined I see another demonstartion, and a more comprehensive one, of how evolution works in the way that I am sure it does, but nothing to show that it is bigger than that.
And that's what your dogma inspired thought process will always do with any evidence - Resort to a "God of the gaps" apologetic. How unusual. quote:
For example, the one thing that historically grates with the gospels, the dates of Jesus' birth conflicting, could easily be some historical mistake - the first cencus being destroyed to cover up the massacre of the children perhaps, who knows.
Well that story is a bit of a whopper. It certainly could not have happened as the bible claims for various reasons and it certainly could not have been on the scale claimed. (And of course the so-called prophecy of this event does not truly refer to it.) Furthermore, the conjecture that a Roman census would have been hidden or destroyed just to protect Herod is total nonsense. There is no instance known where the Romans ever hid a census to hide massacres of the populace of their territories by themselves - So why would they do so for a non-Roman? Remember also that they carried out their Censii for necessary governmental purposes (not least for taxing) - they were very important and costly affairs to conduct so they wouldn't just bin one. quote:
If 100 problems are thrown and 99 prove to be unfounded the 1...
Except you never even came close to answering or refuting 99% of the errors I pointed out to you. Have a go at Isaiah's bad statements if you think you can explain those. |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:
It's okay! I've tried to be frank throughout, it's great to be asked personal questions!
I've looked at the link and it's prompted questions for me, but not convinced me....
I think the main thing is my view of "fully developed" species. The bacteria in that example are still bacteria even though they are different.
It has demonstrated increased complexity resulting from evolution which is fascinating.
And the line that it's one of the definitions of the E-coli species that has changed is very intersting indeed, but not knowing enough about bacteria and how "species" are defined I see another demonstartion, and a more comprehensive one, of how evolution works in the way that I am sure it does, but nothing to show that it is bigger than that.
There are dozens more speciation events in organisms bigger than bacteria discussed here.Or you could google "ring species". Seriously, the "problems" you are raising are only in your head. quote:
As with most things on here the starting point of God creating creatures after their kind is why I see it so differently, and also the hurdle I need to see taken down before I can accept evolution on the scale you insist I should.
Say for bacteria to evolve and no longer be bacteria. For a monkey to develop an unmistakably human organ (yep, I know that's not how evolution works, but I can't think of a better way to say it!) or something along those lines in terms of common ancestors and the like.
From a creationist point of view, God created everything within it's "kind" (whatever it means by that! Cat, dog, bacteria...) and there is a great variety and freedom for diversity and even development within those kinds, but not across them.
What exactly (given even you admit you don't know what a "kind" is) is the hurdle you would need to see dismantled? Also, as Joliet has posted, you can't claim it's not gullibility because gullibility implies you haven't tested it when you admit you have no evidence and therefore cannot have tested it. |
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quote: Originally posted by PansNarrans:
There are dozens more speciation events in organisms bigger than bacteria discussed here.
Ye'but, that's only a page on the internet. It doesn't come with thousands of pages beautifully set in 6/8 point Lexicon, and bound in a leather jacket engraved with gold leaf -- does it!
_____
Roy P
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What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
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quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Sunk cost. |
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quote: Originally posted by PansNarrans: quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Sunk cost.
Fair guess.  It's coz it's not on thin, leather bound pages with the important bits in red...  Nah! It's what happens when you read the Bible with an open mind, don't dismiss a conclusion because the argument for it is circular (it makes the debate futile, but it doesn't count out the conclusion!!), and put your faith in God. You find out how all these seemingly foolish ideas are acually true. You see the glory of Jesus and the beauty of salvation and redemption. It all makes sense, and you remember how strange it seemed before.  Think me contradictory, think me a fool perhaps. But I'm am the Lord's and I believe in His word. I enjoyed trying to debate on the same level as everyone here early on, it was good to be told that my manner was good and I liked the image of conformity and equality that was there for a while. However, this is not for me. You may think you've beaten me all ends up in every respect. You have done in a lot of respects on this forum for sure! But every time I read the Word, every discussion I have with friends and every message I hear all point to this all being futile. The Bible sets out plainly that I have no place here, this is not where I belong, and I should expect to come far from on top. Maybe I did at the start, and I shouldn't have. But I now realise that I don't care for equal status, to be thought eloquent or reasoned. If believing in Jesus Christ and living for Him makes me a fool, then I am a fool! Whatever I could have been in this world's eyes I gladly throw away for His sake! My life is His, if He calls me to be mocked, scorned, though nothing of, persecuted in whatever way, it is for good and His glory! Who knows what I could have been if I'd not become a Christian in my teens, I have no idea where I would be, what I'd be doing, what career I'd have gone down, what I'd even enjoy doing!! Whatever it may have been, however good it may have been as the world sees I gladly throw it all away for my Lord! I'm in love with a King who became a slave;
I'm in love with a God who is humble.
You've gotta go down if you wanna go up;
You've gotta go lower if you wanna go higher and higher!
You've gotta hide and do it in secret
If you want to be seen by God.
It's the inside, outside, upside down kingdom
Where you lose to gain and you die to live.
It's the inside, outside, upside down kingdom
Where you lose to gain and you die to live.(I never thought I'd quote Misty Edwards! There's a few things she's written I wouldn't too!) So, please despair over me - a lost cause, an idiot with double standards who rambles and shouts meaningless dogma in an insane and deluded manner! All I have is my life. I'll give it all, willingly, to Him. If you can't see Him in that there's nothing more I can do, I have nothing more to give! Those who don't know Him are described as blind - He can make you see! You're even called dead, needing Him to make you alive as He will if you turn to Him. Don't believe it if you don't want to, but that's what I'm leaving with - it's all about Jesus!  |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83: So, please despair over me - a lost cause, an idiot with double standards who rambles and shouts meaningless dogma in an insane and deluded manner!
Oh. I was enjoying that. And I don't think you're any of these things. Shame. Couldn't you bring some of your friends here too, instead of leaving? |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:
If believing in Jesus Christ. . .
<snip>
. . . it's all about Jesus!
This is really scary stuff!!
_____
Roy P
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quote: Originally posted by PansNarrans: quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Sunk cost.
Well thankyou PN...never knew about that theory; like it! |
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quote: Originally posted by AlanC83:
It's what happens when you read the Bible with an open mind, don't dismiss a conclusion because the argument for it is circular (it makes the debate futile, but it doesn't count out the conclusion!!), and put your faith in God.
What is open minded about reading the bible with the preset notion that god is real and it is inerrant? If you read it thus then your conclusion is biased from the start. All you are doing in your reading is looking for and interpreting the words to fit your preset belief. And no, circular arguments don't lead to the truth only to what they are designed to conclude. I note you didn't attempt to refute the false prophecies of Isaiah or defend your census conjecture - What, too hard was it? Did you run out of conjecture and maybe's? Or was it just that there is no excuse for those idiocies and you just won't admit the problem in public. quote:
So, please despair over me - a lost cause
Nah, you can believe whatever idiocies you wish. That is your perogative. As for being a lost cause, may be, but who knows - the seed of doubt may already be sown... quote:
...an idiot with double standards who rambles and shouts meaningless dogma in an insane and deluded manner!
It's interesting to note that you have resorted to your rambling "great to be a christian" postings whenever you seemed unable to answer. Is this your way of re-establishing and proving your faith (to yourself) - seems like blatent and obvious self delusion. Has your contribution been in vain? I would say no since your arguments merely serve as warning to anyone sitting on the fence of the dangers of the closed theist mindset and example the hypocrisy and dishonesty of that which you claim is true. |
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quote: If believing in Jesus Christ and living for Him makes me a fool, then I am a fool!
This statement is so depressing, a man finds virtue in ignorance. |
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quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Well, that would be because the mainstay of Christian belief is such that you believe by faith, and expect no supporting evidence or proof. If you refute the existence of God, then you really have to believe that science did it, and it is reasonable to expect that if someone presents a theory to explain exactly how science did it, then said scientist should be able to provide proof of such. In fact, there is no such proof, which makes the theory look rather shaky. |
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quote: Originally posted by Mr Woolf:
Well, that would be because the mainstay of Christian belief is such that you believe by faith, and expect no supporting evidence or proof.
If you refute the existence of God, then you really have to believe that science did it, and it is reasonable to expect that if someone presents a theory to explain exactly how science did it, then said scientist should be able to provide proof of such.
In fact, there is no such proof, which makes the theory look rather shaky.
Failtroll is flailing  |
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quote: Originally posted by Mr Woolf: quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Well, that would be because the mainstay of Christian belief is such that you believe by faith, and expect no supporting evidence or proof. If you refute the existence of God, then you really have to believe that science did it, and it is reasonable to expect that if someone presents a theory to explain exactly how science did it, then said scientist should be able to provide proof of such. In fact, there is no such proof, which makes the theory look rather shaky.
It's only christians who refute the evidence. You're happy with all other areas of science because it does not cross your little old book. Funny that. |
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quote: Originally posted by CDarwin: quote: Originally posted by Mr Woolf: quote: Originally posted by CDarwin:
What I find confusing with Alan is that he requires irrefutable evidence for evolution (which incedently he has been given) but nothing for god. Why?
Well, that would be because the mainstay of Christian belief is such that you believe by faith, and expect no supporting evidence or proof. If you refute the existence of God, then you really have to believe that science did it, and it is reasonable to expect that if someone presents a theory to explain exactly how science did it, then said scientist should be able to provide proof of such. In fact, there is no such proof, which makes the theory look rather shaky.
It's only christians who refute the evidence. You're happy with all other areas of science because it does not cross your little old book. Funny that.
Actually, I'm not completely happy with all other areas of science. You have only to study a subject with anything more than a passing interest level, I quote, for instance the "joke" from the popular comedy show, the big bang...... "But this applies only to spherical chickens in a vacuum". Fact is, mankind doesn't truly understand even the fundamentals of so much science, and yet purports to do so. Puts any conclusion to almost any concept in pretty serious doubt. Particularly something like the theories concerning abiogenesis followed by millennia of evolution, relying, as they do, on numerous other dubious science items such as radio carbon dating. The whole theory, at every point and in every aspect is unsupported by any evidence, making belief in it no more or less a faith proposoition than belief in God. |
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Here's my bold prediction for how this conversation is going to go.
I'm going to ask what you mean by "Dubious radiocarbon dating".
You're going to point to an instance of creationist fraud in the 80s that has been dressed up like a pig in lipstick on answersingenesis.
I'm going to pound your "argument" into dust by using facts about C14 and consilient evidences.
You're going to flail spectacularly.
I'm going to add "consilience" and "scientific method" to the growing list of words you don't understand.
So, let's get going.
What do you mean by "dubious radiocarbon dating"?
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on a totally different slant. I have just been listening to a phone in on gun crime in London. " guys who rang in had been in prison but said that becomming a christian had turned their lives around and changed their ways. They had hope and felt much happier and they were not committing crime.
Even if you think that christianity is rubbish as alot of you on here do, at least it can transform peoples' lives and give them hope for the future.
I think that was where Alan was trying to come from as well.
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