Go  |
New |
Find |
Notify |
|
Reply |
|
Admin |
New PM! |
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:.....You can say the onus of proof is on Christians, but they HAVE proof they are satisfied with. Personal experience and testimony from others. Which is all we have to prove anything, just in greater or lesser degrees. ...?
I would disagree here. You have to have as much faith in "Personal experience and testimony from others" as you do in the existence of god because they are not tangible pieces of evidence. You cannot "show" someone your personal experience, only describe it then hope they don't cart you off to the funny farm. I would suggest they are only satisfied because it backs up what they want to believe.
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:
In other news, I don’t know why you all seem to think that an omniscient god is incompatible with free will! I watch a movie which I’ve seen before. I know what is going to happen next. I am, in the world of the movie, omniscient and outside time (I can rewind, fast forward, pause the movie). Doesn’t mean the characters in the movie don’t have free will. No problem. Obviously with a creator and omnipotent god, this gets more complex. But still, knowing what choice will be made doesn’t negate the fact that the choice is there. Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?
I think this is a poor analogy. The characters can't change the events in the film you are forwarding & rewinding. These events have been set, no matter how many times you forward & reverse. So no free will here.
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
Hi Greenjack.
Exactly my point. Like I said, it's a matter of degree. I'm saying that personal experience and testimony from others is all we have to prove anything at all. Take gravity as an example. EVERYONE (as far as we know) has a personal experience of it. And we have masses of testimony from others about it. If someone really wanted to argue against the existence of gravity, what other proofs could you give, that aren't ultimately about people's experience of it? Go on, PROVE that gravity is real without referring to your personal experience of it, or someone else's testimony to it.
The point of the movie analogy is that at the time that the decisions are made, the characters have free will. Obviously they can't be changed after the fact. That's like saying that you have no free will because you can't change a decision you made yesterday.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:
Hi Greenjack.
Exactly my point. Like I said, it's a matter of degree. I'm saying that personal experience and testimony from others is all we have to prove anything at all. Take gravity as an example. EVERYONE (as far as we know) has a personal experience of it. And we have masses of testimony from others about it. If someone really wanted to argue against the existence of gravity, what other proofs could you give, that aren't ultimately about people's experience of it? Go on, PROVE that gravity is real without referring to your personal experience of it, or someone else's testimony to it.
I see what you are saying, but there is a big difference between the claims made for gravity & those for god. I can demonstrate what we call gravity by dropping something. It will fall. There is nothing I can do that will have an effect that demonstrates god.
The point of the movie analogy is that at the time that the decisions are made, the characters have free will. Obviously they can't be changed after the fact. That's like saying that you have no free will because you can't change a decision you made yesterday.so what was the point of saying you could "rewind, fast forward, pause the movie"?
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
Yes. You will SEE something fall, ie you will experience it - proving gravity (to your satisfaction). If I was convinced there was no such thing as gravity, I could still dispute the cause of a falling object (hey, maybe God pushed it down!) According to a Christian, prayer does have effects that demonstrate God (to their satisfaction). Sure, probability is on the side of the gravity-believing atheist, but it cannot ever be a certainty.
The rewind/fast forward bit was to show an omniscient god's position - he can be anywhen. We can't. No barrier to free will.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:
Yes. You will SEE something fall, ie you will experience it - proving gravity (to your satisfaction). If I was convinced there was no such thing as gravity, I could still dispute the cause of a falling object (hey, maybe God pushed it down!) According to a Christian, prayer does have effects that demonstrate God (to their satisfaction). Sure, probability is on the side of the gravity-believing atheist, but it cannot ever be a certainty.
No, and science isn't about absolute certainty, it's about determining which theory best fits the evidence. It also allows us to make predictions and to test those predicitions against those theories. Thus the theory of gravity allows me to predict that if I drop a ball it will fall to the ground. The theory of intelligent falling would suggest that if a prayed to god to not push the ball down then the ball might remain floating in the air when I let go. Which theory do you think stands up better? and why do you think Christians never bother praying for things they know can't happen (like amputees limbs re-appearing)? quote:
The rewind/fast forward bit was to show an omniscient god's position - he can be anywhen. We can't. No barrier to free will.
But clearly god isn't just anywhen he is everywhen. BIG barrier to freewill. Are you a sports fan Nick?
---------------
"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas-covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be" D Adams
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:
Yes. You will SEE something fall, ie you will experience it - proving gravity (to your satisfaction). If I was convinced there was no such thing as gravity, I could still dispute the cause of a falling object (hey, maybe God pushed it down!) According to a Christian, prayer does have effects that demonstrate God (to their satisfaction). Sure, probability is on the side of the gravity-believing atheist, but it cannot ever be a certainty.
.
gravity is just a name given to the "force" that makes things fall. It's the phenomena we are demonstrating, not the cause. Who knows what it is? yes you can argue that god does it as much as you can argue the tooth fairy does it in her spare time, but it still does not demonstrate god. So we can demonstrate the effect (call it what you will) but not the cause. We are still left with nothing as evidence of god that can't be attributed to natural phenomena.
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Nickycky:The rewind/fast forward bit was to show an omniscient god's position - he can be anywhen. We can't. No barrier to free will.
but if god already knows what we are going to do, when did we get the choice?
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
quote: But still, knowing what choice will be made doesn’t negate the fact that the choice is there. Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?
Nickycky, But free will and an omniscient god are a contradiction. If god knows exactly what we will do, we are destined to do that and nothing else - doesn't matter if we are aware of it or not. Could we surprise god? By your definition we can't - but a true test of the exitence of free will is if god was surprised! Finally, the thing I've never understood is that if god knows who will join him in heaven and who won't - then why go through this farce on earth? Why can't he just short circuit the system. And why does he 'need' people to join him in heaven in the first place? |
| |
|
|
You have only to open your eyes to see the hand of God.
This earth would be a paradise if MAN would just make the right decisions and behave himself. Stop with the sinning and just take care of each other. Then I think God would present himself as a real being and hang out with us.
But it's like I said before, "who wants to hang around someone who is mean and evil?"
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by lindabud:
You have only to open your eyes to see the hand of God.
This earth would be a paradise if MAN would just make the right decisions and behave himself. Stop with the sinning and just take care of each other. Then I think God would present himself as a real being and hang out with us.
But it's like I said before, "who wants to hang around someone who is mean and evil?"
well according to the bible jesus suggested just that !! but it all depends on your definition of god. I look around me & see the hand of nature, warts & all. I don't need an imaginary creator. Nature is clearly more than capable. As you say, just open your eyes.
Cheers
GJ
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by lindabud:
You have only to open your eyes to see the hand of God.
This earth would be a paradise if MAN would just make the right decisions and behave himself. Stop with the sinning and just take care of each other. Then I think God would present himself as a real being and hang out with us.
But it's like I said before, "who wants to hang around someone who is mean and evil?"
Hi Lindabud...so are you saying that if we all behaved ourselves,there would be no natural disasters,sickness ect.In fact...Heaven on earth,and then no need for Heaven.How does that work.I think you are creating an hypothesis which you know cannot happen. |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by parklaneyid:
But free will and an omniscient god are a contradiction. If god knows exactly what we will do, we are destined to do that and nothing else - doesn't matter if we are aware of it or not. Ever thought that God - assuming there is one! - might not be able to know what we will do in the future - because there's nothing to know until we actually do it? On that basis, he might arguably know all the possible courses of action we might take, and even draw inferences from what he knows about us as to the choice we're likely to make. But, if that's true, he can't know until there's something to know?! Could we surprise god? By your definition we can't - but a true test of the exitence of free will is if god was surprised! Finally, the thing I've never understood is that if god knows who will join him in heaven and who won't - then why go through this farce on earth? Why can't he just short circuit the system. And why does he 'need' people to join him in heaven in the first place?[/QUOTE] |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by parklaneyid:
If god knows exactly what we will do, we are destined to do that and nothing else - doesn't matter if we are aware of it or not.
And why does he 'need' people to join him in heaven in the first place?
I messed that up first time. God may know whay and how, but I don't! Let's try again, and try and phrase it better!! Ever thought that God - always assuming there is one! - might not be able to know what we will do in the future because, until we've done it, there's actually nothing to know. On that basis, he might arguably know all the possible courses of action we could take, and even, from knowledge of us, know the choice he thinks we're likely to make. But, if that's true, he can't know until there's something to know. And as for God "needing" people to be with him, the trad Christian thought has always been that he doesn't. He chooses to invite 'em - a sort of "love overflow" - you know, that "full measure, brimming over" stuff! |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by TheCarpenter:
No, and science isn't about absolute certainty, it's about determining which theory best fits the evidence.
Which is exactly my point. People who claim absolutely that God/gods/flying spaghetti monsters do NOT exist are being no more scientific than those who claim they do. The scientific claim is that they PROBABLY do not exist, and that gravity is PROBABLY real. (You DO know I’m not seriously arguing for intelligent falling, right?) Christians don’t often pray for actual miracles, (testing God is frowned on, after all) but not ‘never’. God is allowed to say no, so prayers not being answered cannot be considered disproof in God. Are you implying that they don’t pray for miracles because they don’t believe god COULD do them, or they don’t believe he WILL do them? There’s a huge difference. Why do you think that God being everywhen is a barrier to free will? That just means he sees the choices you make before, as and after you make them, not that you aren’t making those choices. No, not a sports fan at all. Why? |
| |
|
|
GJ
I’m not arguing for the existence of god. I’m arguing against his non-existence. I’m just fed up of scientists starting with an assumption that he doesn’t exist. Like calling him “an imaginary creator”. C’mon. That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. You are assuming god is imaginary, as much as lindabud is assuming he is real. Your assumption may have more evidence to support it than hers, but there is still a possibility that she is right and you are wrong.
We get the choice at the moment we choose(!) You say God ‘already’ knows what we’re gonna do. He knows because, from his point of view, we have already done it.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by parklaneyid:
But free will and an omniscient god are a contradiction.
WHY? That’s what I’m asking.
If god knows exactly what we will do, we are destined to do that and nothing else - doesn't matter if we are aware of it or not.
We may be destined to make a particular choice. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have that choice. It’s a fine line. You can choose to wear a blue jumper or a red one. Just because someone happens to know which choice you make, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a choice. The omniscient god knows which jumper you will/have put on. Doesn’t mean you couldn’t have put on the other one, just that he would have known if you did.
Could we surprise god? By your definition we can't - but a true test of the exitence of free will is if god was surprised!
How does surprising God show the existence of free will? You’ll have to spell that one out for me, I’m afraid. As far as I can see, surprising god only disproves his omniscience. No effect on whether or not there is free will. Even if your contention that there cannot be both an omnipotent god and free will is true, surprising god still doesn’t prove free will - you could have a non-omnipotent god and no free will.
Finally, the thing I've never understood is that if god knows who will join him in heaven and who won't - then why go through this farce on earth? Why can't he just short circuit the system.
It would create a paradox not to, as he knows who will join him based on their actions/beliefs on earth. Without the time on earth occurring, the conclusions would be different. If you prevent a murder from occurring, the perpetrator can only be arrested for attempted murder, not murder.
And why does he 'need' people to join him in heaven in the first place?
JohnBE has answered that one from the Christian perspective. He doesn’t. Anymore than people ‘need’ a pet - they just want one! I still haven’t seen how god knowing what choice will be made negates there being a choice. |
| |
|
|
Argh. Sorry! Messed up there - my comments are interspersed and were meant to be in colour. Sorry! Hope you can still figure out who said what.
Nicky
|
| |
|
|
quote: Ever thought that God - always assuming there is one! - might not be able to know what we will do in the future because, until we've done it, there's actually nothing to know. On that basis, he might arguably know all the possible courses of action wecould take, and even, from knowledge of us, know the choice he thinks we're likely to make. But, if that's true, he can't know until there's something to know.
John - You are denying god's omiscience. This includes the ability to see into the future, so he'll always know what we will do. So de facto we have no free will. quote: And as for God "needing" people to be with him, the trad Christian thought has always been that he doesn't. He chooses to invite 'em - a sort of "love overflow" - you know, that "full measure, brimming over" stuff!
To be honest I really don't understand what you mean by a 'love overflow' - as you can gather I don't attend any christian 'hug-ins'. But if god doesn't need us to accompany him in the afterlife - why did he bother creating us in the first place? |
| |
|
|
Hey parklaneyid
I am obviously missing something that is glaringly obvious to you and most other people here. Can you explain why omniscience necessarily means there is no free will? Please? I just don't see your reasoning.
And I did answer your last question in my post - God doesn't need us, he WANTS us. You don't NEED to post here, so why do you bother? Presumably it's because you want to.
|
| |
|
|
quote: We may be destined to make a particular choice. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have that choice. It’s a fine line. You can choose to wear a blue jumper or a red one. Just because someone happens to know which choice you make, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a choice. The omniscient god knows which jumper you will/have put on.
The point is that christians believe that certain consequences follow actions - if choosing a red jumper leads to hell then a christian will argue that you could have picked a blue one. BUT, god knew which one you would pick so the whole exercise is pointless as the outcome has already been determined by god's plan for us. quote: How does surprising God show the existence of free will? You’ll have to spell that one out for me, I’m afraid. As far as I can see, surprising god only disproves his omniscience.
Correct - it will mean we have TRUE free will- a choice that subverts god's plan (see above) quote: It would create a paradox not to, as he knows who will join him based on their actions/beliefs on earth. Without the time on earth occurring, the conclusions would be different. If you prevent a murder from occurring, the perpetrator can only be arrested for attempted murder, not murder.
So you deny god's omniscience (Without the time on earth occurring, the conclusions would be different). You're stating that god doesn't know the conclusions! Strange view for a Christian to take? quote: JohnBE has answered that one from the Christian perspective. He doesn’t. Anymore than people ‘need’ a pet - they just want one!
So we're god's pets - he just wants us to make him feel loved - and if you displease him you are cast out to everlasting torment. These aplologetics are incoherent (from my perspective I hasten to add). |
| |
|
|
Sorry, the above post should have been addressed to Nickycky | |
