It makes me cringe when I think about the topics and generalisation this programme will bring once again.
As you guessed I was born somewhere in 'EE' and noticed the way people in UK tend to downgrade the EE people although: suffered because of the 3 powers decision to separate the world and still produced masses of decent, highly educated and hard working people, never imposed our religion on the rest of the world, easily integrated in UK etc. Even in the US people are more respectful than in UK and in a normal day I would get some 10 compliments in US, where in UK would come across 3 rude people.
One last thing: what is all the fuss with Zimbabwe, Tibet or Darfur? Of course there are huge problems there but the major issue that affects our daily life is Palestine. We have to deal with the Palestinian problem as this affect all the economy, security etc. Everything starts with Palestine!
I am not taking anything away from your negative experiences in the UK. But living here is not as free and easy as it is portrayed except for those who have so much money they don't need to work etc. I have been spat on by people on a bus stop as a school girl for no reason, Being an immigrant isn't the soul reason people are aggressive and abusive to total strangers
This programme was focusing on many different issues including for example the loss of identity some English people are feeling, which is directly attributed to immigration. I went to London and needed directions and found all 10 people I asked for directions were not English speaking, something I had never had to experience before and it really shocked me, when holiday in France, Spain, Germany etc to see people able to speak three languages is common, however we are not a multi-lingual country to the extent of others, hence the drain on resources immigration has brought us.
It is a huge learning curve, but where possible we need to eliminate the negative stereo types and the double standards which cause the resentment documented in the programme. When peoples family life and security are threatened it causes a major problem to many.
I think the programme showed that the population as a whole in this country are fed up with people coming into this country on mass. This is the main problem, limits need to be set and very simply if you have nothing to benefit england you don't get in. The other crucial point is if you do get in learn the Bloody language.
The Inconvenient Truth, was a phrase used in the title of this programme. I think the programme was actually very convienient, it fits in with a trend of programmes on other channels that far from discussing immigration push an assertion with precious little evidence.
The assertion being that the levels of immigration into this country are now widely accepted to be too high and most people want it stopped.
Selectively quoting from a poll seemed to be the evidence base for this assertion. This was followed with interviews, with no counter point of view given.
This isn't discussion and I don't think it's anything other than very poor journalism either.
Channel four news stands out as the one major news programme on the major channels, where I feel we have any chance of an issue being discussed and considered in anything other than tabloid headline fashion. This programme was a million miles away from that tradition and added nothing to the debate it claimed was so important.
It's also not a new idea to give the impression that Enoch Powel was just a poor misunderstood man either, I've seen that done a million times before and it's still as wrong now as it always was.
Perhaps the one plus point is that surely the series can't get any worse can it?
Hi there, I am a Pole and most recently became British and have been living in the UK for almost 15 years. The reason why I moved here was partly because I have always been an Anglophile and because I had found Polish education a bit limited and limiting. Having moved to London to study at the University College London I found that English people were absolutely wonderful, fair, appreciative of Poles and firstly and fore-mostly appreciative of our patriotic streak. My mum has been living here for ages and as a hardworking nurse and fierce feminist she loves Britain as much as I do. My dad emigrated to California ages ago and although I do agree with the other post that people there are a bit more outgoing than English but I think is purely to do with the weather. As to the program itself I have no idea what was it about? I did find it lacking any depth and simply boring and unimaginative.
I am appalled by the tone and much of the content on tonight’s Dispatches and was saddened that the program; once the jewel in channel 4's current affairs crown has plumbed the depths it so obviously has.
The program stated something obvious in an extremely simplistic manner: people are afraid of people with unfamiliar cultural motifs; they're afraid of difference and petrified of change. Immigration, as a political issue is symptomatic of this melancholic reality and dispatches dealt with the subject by utilising a similar, unsophisticated, jaundiced narrative.
The argument presented a poll and the opinions of selected individuals as the evidence behind its assertion that immigration is a big problem, and we should all be terrified of the hordes of Eastern Europeans, like they’re all the same, invading our shores via the landing craft of EU legislation.
The first element, the poll seemed to be asking loaded and simplistic questions, designed to elicit a crude, one-dimensional response, reducing the issue to its lowest common denominator and extracting the easiest and most convenient answers, from what seemed to be a motley crew of easy, convenient people asked to reply to such polls. Nobody ever asks me my opinions or anybody with an ounce of intellect, because they’d refuse on the basis that such simplistic tripe isn’t worth a response.
The second factor; the anecdotal views of a selected collection of malcontents and disenfranchised spectators was considerably less convincing than the percentages. Once again we have loaded, and ill-conceived questions framed by the auto-suggestive agenda preordained by the programme producers. When will programme makers learn; if the answer is implicit in the question the answer is forfeit to prejudice?
At no point was an alternative perspective identified or articulated. The presenter neglected to challenge either the audience or the band of fearful and frightened little Englanders with either an historical or scientific perspective.
The Celts feared the Romans, the Celts and Romans feared the Anglos Saxons, who feared the Norseman, who feared the Normans, and of course everybody feared and hated the Jutes; yet, today, most white English people are a mixture of them all, usually with a bit of Eurasian or African thrown into genetic mix .
Diverse societies thrive because influxes of migrant populations bring culture; knowledge and genes that once shared and embraced reinvigorate stagnant insular societies. The courage, resilience, determination and desperation that impel individuals to leave the security of their homeland are the same traits that forge innovation and invention. Contrary to the preconceived views of Dispatches, immigration is the catalyst of social evolution and Dispatches missed its chance to say so and challenge the absolutes of the traditionally fearful immigration polemic.
I agree with Mikey J on the content of the Dispatches programme tonight.The content of the programme did bob about a bit without touching on how Anglo Saxon type English felt about the situation. Rather, the BNP stereotype was reinforced, with the only real discussion with a white native showing how the "cruel natives" beat him up! Once again reinforcing the media mindset about rough white Northerners.
The oft quoted "Rivers of Blood" speech has had its day. No doubt when people read his speech properly it will be revealed that the facts of the speech spoke about immigration "overwhelming" the British way of life.It seems that this prophecy has come true! As for the interviews,as usual, instead of talking to a mainly white (English) cross section, we somehow have to believe that the immigration issues have only arisen since the "last wave" of immigration in the 50s and 60s. The point only briefly touched upon was how indigenous people are always put to the back of any queue, whether it is for housing, benefits or "assistance". I agree with a previous post that immigrants should not be given houses and £30,000 a year, after arriving here not having paid anything into the "pot"!THEY should have to be at the rear of the queue! Neither should our misguided politicians be enforcing terms of imprisonment on white single mums whos child plays truant, yet ignore the fact that 2,000 girls of the Asian community have, to quote a parliamentary committee on forced marraiges, "dropped off the school rolls in the West Midlands". (With NO action from politicians, government, the police or the CPS!). Community cohesion. Don`t make me laugh. Up til very recently it was common for anyone expressing views about (say) immigrants getting housing before British citizens, to be labelled "racist". The programme tonight showed that Ch4 at least is tackling the topic which no politician seems eager to confront. In my opinion, immigrants coming to Britain should only be allowed in if they have skills or money in order not to be a charge upon the state. Try attempting to emigrate to Australia or New Zealand as an illiterate labourer and see how far it gets you. And, until terrorism is stopped, as it truly will be one day, perhaps we could ban immigration from those countries where the terrorists call home??? Immigration into Britain is only at present levels because we are seen as an easy touch. The Home Office recently brought out a new immigrant friendly rule that Muslim men can now claim for up to 3 wives!! A British citizen would be arrested for bigamy! We should do as the USA and Australia do. Immigration should be severely restricted. It is much more difficult getting into the USA and the white commonwealth, as they do not have a problem with being proud of their country, and expecting immigrants to follow suit. In my opinion, it is time Britain followed their examples! Finally, one personal example: My father in law is in his 90s, and was a war hero, serving his country all through the last war. I tried to get him some help, as he owns his own home, and is very proud and independent. So I went to his local council offices and asked for a leaflet on the widely advertised grants for home improvements. The lady on the reception said that there were grants leaflets, but were all in Urdu. I would have to have a "loan leaflet"...which was in English! I was unable to get him the help freely available to those incoming citizens who have not got English as a primary language. I would have thought that for a person such as my father in law, who helped ensure that this country remained in existence, their would have been at least and "even playing field". I never told him what I was informed about the grants, as I thought being insulted on his behalf was enough.
Sort of, all immigrants are ok except eastern europeans.. Mr Rageh Omaar talks about immigration, but shows what a nice people are indians, asians and etc, and what a bad guys are eastern europeans.. I found this program very unfair and absolutely ridiculous. I understand indian restaurants are popular, but eastern euroean food is very nice too There's a lot of eastern europeans who can't speak english fluently, but I know lots of muslim woman who lived here all their life and cannot speak english at all..
I've watched this program as this subject is an emotive issue to me. First of all, I agree with ella111 that it's very downgrading that Brits refer to all new arrivals as Eastern Europeans. We all have our own unique identities - apparently indigenous people do not give a toss about it although they seem to be crazy about their own identities - every little village tries to distinguish themselves from other parts of the country!
Secondly, I find majority of these programs are mostly about stirring people's minds - haven't seen any documentary showing a comprehensive relation about lives of different immigration groups here. Personally I feel intimidated by this all witch-hunt going on here. I prefer withholding my nationality each time I can cos people treat me better being unaware am Polish myself. Pathetic example of xenophobia!
Also, calling us Eastern Europeans fuels people's almost gut fears of eastern culture - they may think subconsciously about good vs evil like West vs East, better vs worse. If you check up the map you'll find Poland isn't located any further to the east than Austria is - but this country wouldn't be classified here as Eastern European. Well, according to the map Poland is located very much within the Central Europe. Also, we left some time ago our past based on interfering Russia behind us, thus the "Eastern European" term sounds to me rather condescending!
Lastly, I don't understand other immigrant groups who suddenly resist new incomers although their fathers were facing a very similar position some time ago. To me this is more about resentment of youths who expect all good things will come to them without any efforts seeing the only obstacle - these blooming immigrants! The bottom line is the more Europe is divided the more of benefit this is to another superpowers. Though, people prefer to vent out their hatred and xenophobia ... well done all you!
You should never be ashamed of being Polish. We have very long, rich history and we should be proud and feel free to call ourselves Polish even if we are immigrants in Britain. As to pigeonholing us as Eastern Europeans, try to think about it as a sort of nostalgia for the James Bond from the 80-ties and the 90-ties. It helps BTW we also have our fair share of racists at home just as every European country.
Originally posted by ella111: It makes me cringe when I think about the topics and generalisation this programme will bring once again.
As you guessed I was born somewhere in 'EE' and noticed the way people in UK tend to downgrade the EE people although: suffered because of the 3 powers decision to separate the world and still produced masses of decent, highly educated and hard working people, never imposed our religion on the rest of the world, easily integrated in UK etc. Even in the US people are more respectful than in UK and in a normal day I would get some 10 compliments in US, where in UK would come across 3 rude people.
One last thing: what is all the fuss with Zimbabwe, Tibet or Darfur? Of course there are huge problems there but the major issue that affects our daily life is Palestine. We have to deal with the Palestinian problem as this affect all the economy, security etc. Everything starts with Palestine!
There are plenty things and communities have been missing. Particularly massive number of immigrants Easten European who were brought in the UK under Marshal Plan after WW2. All of them were European and white and consequently they disappeared after 2 generation in the UK totally integrated and became unidentifiable British population. In Yorkshire too many cemeteries remain their names.Same situation with Irish and Scottish. Look at in the Spain 2,5 million British immigrants there, English schools, communities,pubs there is not integration in Spanish Culture at all, English one English ghetto by other.
Ada, hi. It's not that I feel ashamed, quite contrary. This is only recent years spent here that I realised how reach our culture actually is. All I say is the reality here proven life getting awkward occasionally just owing to being of any particular origin :/ This is UK, 2008
Yeah, as to racism back in Poland, I find it equally appalling and feel ashamed of such issues. I really feel for let's say these Ukrainians who used to flood to Poland being often treated worse. But there you go, it happens everywhere One can hear still so often this old worn out record "bugger off home". Luckily, not all people are this narrow-minded )
Many thanks Peter for your reply, I miss Poland especially the family atmosphere around Easter and Christmas. Being an immigrant certainly poses certain issues however for me it also made my life more interesting and stimulating. I have made my home in Britain now and am relatively very happy and I would never consider secluding myself in any kind of ghetto. Nice to know there are nice, broadminded Poles in the UK such as yourself .
Immigration is fine and welcome as long as the numbers year on year are easily absorbed in to the host community and as long as the immigrants fill a job that could not easliy be filled by a British person.
However we have immigration on an unprecedented scale and the result of this social 'experiment' will not be realised for a few years. I don't believe it will be a positive experience for all concerned.
Dr. Tim you appear a little upset at the results of this poll and how Dispatches presented these results.
Do you have any evidence that would call in to question these results?
Does your experience with talking with people in the UK differ from these poll results?
I ask because in my experience over the previous five years I've noted how people are now willing to come out and say how they feel about the levels of immigration, with out fear of being labelled racist, and these polls do indeed back up my experience of talking to people regarding immigration.
I was really surprised and disappointed that a journalist of the reputation of Rageh Omaar created what was such a racist documentary. Over and over again he picked out the Eastern Europeans for criticism, larely ignoring the remainder of the immigrant community.
He also described the comments by the indigenous community as offensive.
Had someone else done this subjecting another minority to this critism it would have been condemmed by the group concerned.
The fact is that the debate on immigration has only opened up because the £multi-billion ethic support industry is now worried that it is losing its power and its ticket to the gravy-train. For many years, adverse comment by the idigenous population in the UK has been stifled by this industry - which has thrived on its anglo-phobic stance which now appears to be refocussing on being euro-phobic.
My point is that when discussing an emotive and complicated subject such as immigration, polls are an ineffective way of providing evidence to validate a thesis. This is because they do not capture nuance or intricacy and answers are often suggested and implicit in the question. This is not a scientific method of gauging opinion and therefore holds little credibility.
However, like you, many of the opinions expressed in the programme have been expressed to me in discussions, albeit usually with a little more sophistication than “two members of staff are dealing with Eastern Europeans at the benefit office”. My issue is that the opinions expressed were not challenged with a cogent counter argument.
My point is that when discussing an emotive and complicated subject such as immigration, polls are an ineffective way of providing evidence to validate a thesis. This is because they do not capture nuance or intricacy and answers are often suggested and implicit in the question. This is not a scientific method of gauging opinion and therefore holds little credibility.
However, like you, many of the opinions expressed in the programme have been expressed to me in discussions, albeit usually with a little more sophistication than “two members of staff are dealing with Eastern Europeans at the benefit office”. My issue is that the opinions expressed were not challenged with a cogent counter argument.
Maybe the opinions offered in this programme will be challenged in one of the other two parts, I believe it is in three parts, one may be devoted to the 'benefits' of immigration.
The points that everyone made in the Dispatches programme about migrants undercutting wages and taking working class employment were perfectly valid but it was all male points of view. British second generation immigrant views from a man of West Indian orgin and one of his points was that his friends when in a bar couldn't communicate with the waitress! This comment made the guy and/or his friends look like they had issues with sexual rejection! I know that Afro-Caribbean men create children with any and all kinds of women including eastern european, so such men have got to bear in mind that as men they are creating competition by producing fairer skinned black people for white recruiters to choose over themselves. A female reporter could have put this point across. Is channel 4 misogynistic now, with its failure to include British born female multiracial points of view? Rageh Omar didn't speak to Nigerian immigrants, there was nothing regarding Nigerians coming to Britain! As a female I have encountered the 40 + age group of Nigerian men who come here in gangs living off their one working friend while the others exist by prowling around towns and cities looking for women to pay for their existence! What women know about migrating identities and their lifestyles makes a documentary like dispatches look like a fish out of water that doesn't live up to its documentary 'know-it-all' advertising of 'Immigration:The Inconvenient Truth' BBC 2's 'All White in Barking' was sublimely more real and expressive! Nigerians and Albanians at a barbeque hosted by a white working class couple was powerful because it was demonstrative and represenatative of views in a show and tell way whereas Dispatches made the mistake regarding 'show dont tell'.
Well, I thought to post my dissatisfaction yesterday, but today I see that many people are already voicing concerns I had. I found this programme appalling. Rather than trying to resolve issues Rageh actually created them. Especially when he interviewed Asian community I felt he did some kind of briefing in advance so that they knew that Eastern Europeans should be blamed. At the end of the day it looked like that Poles are just missing horns to become devil. They are to blame for crime, house price increase, etc etc.. . The same time Rageh didn't provide any proof of that. And last, but not least - there was an issue raised that EE work for much less and thereby rest of the local people can't find job. Even if that is true in a number of cases, that creates cheaper service, products for the final consumer. To conclude - try to imagine, that instead of EE this show would be made about any other distinctive ethnic minority - Jews, etc. Rageh would be probably spending his night in a police station pending investigation in creation of racial tensions. He was lucky to get away because poles are not considered as ethnic minority in "political" sense and they are just European Union citizens from another country.
One thing which I was slightly miffed at, was the comment about how race riots took place in many cities in the UK, when in fact Scotland, which is still part of the UK, had no such riots. He should have said England.
Originally posted by amygdala: The points that everyone made in the Dispatches programme about migrants undercutting wages and taking working class employment were perfectly valid but it was all male points of view. British second generation immigrant views from a man of West Indian orgin and one of his points was that his friends when in a bar couldn't communicate with the waitress! This comment made the guy and/or his friends look like they had issues with sexual rejection! I know that Afro-Caribbean men create children with any and all kinds of women including eastern european, so such men have got to bear in mind that as men they are creating competition by producing fairer skinned black people for white recruiters to choose over themselves. A female reporter could have put this point across. Is channel 4 misogynistic now, with its failure to include British born female multiracial points of view? Rageh Omar didn't speak to Nigerian immigrants, there was nothing regarding Nigerians coming to Britain! As a female I have encountered the 40 + age group of Nigerian men who come here in gangs living off their one working friend while the others exist by prowling around towns and cities looking for women to pay for their existence! What women know about migrating identities and their lifestyles makes a documentary like dispatches look like a fish out of water that doesn't live up to its documentary 'know-it-all' advertising of 'Immigration:The Inconvenient Truth' BBC 2's 'All White in Barking' was sublimely more real and expressive! Nigerians and Albanians at a barbeque hosted by a white working class couple was powerful because it was demonstrative and represenatative of views in a show and tell way whereas Dispatches made the mistake regarding 'show dont tell'.
Mr Rageh Omaar talks about immigration, but shows what a nice people are indians, asians and etc, and what a bad guys are eastern europeans.. I found this program very unfair and absolutely ridiculous. I understand indian restaurants are popular, but eastern euroean food is very nice too 
There's a lot of eastern europeans who can't speak english fluently, but I know lots of muslim woman who lived here all their life and cannot speak english at all..
BTW we also have our fair share of racists at home just as every European country.
One can hear still so often this old worn out record "bugger off home". Luckily, not all people are this narrow-minded 
)
