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Originally posted by RedDuster:

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To put things in perspective , Michael Vaughan averaged only 32 with the bat in the same series.

Roy .. I am now convinced you have a thing going with and for Michael Vaughan.

A Flintoff thread and yet you manage to squeeze in a mench about your fave Englishman ...
So very very ...

Just remember Merlin that Geraint Jones has earn't the nickname Audi.........

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Originally posted by Rowman:
To put things in perspective , Michael Vaughan averaged only 32 with the bat in the same series.

What kind of perspective is that? He always averages under 40 per series. 32 is about what he's been 'contributing' for the last three years.

Too much f-ing perspective.

What Romwan has no conception of is the hundreds of runs Vaughan takes off the oppo by putting the right bowlers on at the right times, setting the right fields, keeping the guys calm and focussed, and reading the situation as it changes - all of which which Fred is unable to do.

A fit and in form Michael Vaughan would have made a huge difference. Not enough to have retained the ashes, but Andrew could have batted at 7 and more would have been got from the team generally. Fred is far too pally with some and not with others so it doesn't make for the most successful side how i see it.

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Originally posted by County Player:
A fit and in form Michael Vaughan would have made a huge difference. Not enough to have retained the ashes, but Andrew could have batted at 7 and more would have been got from the team generally. Fred is far too pally with some and not with others so it doesn't make for the most successful side how i see it.

Define 'in form'.

Vaughan was averaging around 32 in international cricket up until a six or seven match purple patch when he couldn't stop scoring hundreds - and he's been averaging around 33 for the three years since that point.

Isn't it time people stopped deluding themselves that he's a world class batsman and just accepted that he's a reasonable player who had a brief flash of brilliance - but that has long since gone and isn't coming back.

It's nothing to do with form. It's about ability - and on that score, he's nothing special.

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Originally posted by Mister Robby:
What Romwan has no conception of is the hundreds of runs Vaughan takes off the oppo by putting the right bowlers on at the right times, setting the right fields, keeping the guys calm and focussed, and reading the situation as it changes - all of which which Fred is unable to do.

You can delude yourself all you like but the fact is Michael Vaughan didn't take 24 wickets in the 2005 Ashes series.
Vaughan also didn't take 18 wickets as did Simon Jones.
All Vaughan did was average 32 with the bat and hop on Freddies shoulders for a free ride along with Ashley Giles and Geraint Jones.
For goodness sake, the idea was to illustrate what a great performance Freddie put on during the series, not argue with delusional kids who can't accept some of the realities of why England are currently in the position they are in.

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Originally posted by Rowman:

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Originally posted by Mister Robby:
What Romwan has no conception of is the hundreds of runs Vaughan takes off the oppo by putting the right bowlers on at the right times, setting the right fields, keeping the guys calm and focussed, and reading the situation as it changes - all of which which Fred is unable to do.

You can delude yourself all you like but the fact is Michael Vaughan didn't take 24 wickets in the 2005 Ashes series.
Vaughan also didn't take 18 wickets as did Simon Jones.
All Vaughan did was average 32 with the bat and hop on Freddies shoulders for a free ride along with Ashley Giles and Geraint Jones.
For goodness sake, the idea was to illustrate what a great performance Freddie put on during the series, not argue with delusional kids who can't accept some of the realities of why England are currently in the position they are in.

Nice of Rowman to confirm Mister Robby's point so perfectly...

Are the kids talking about some Vaughn? Coz I don't remember ever being impressed by Michael Vaughan's batting abilities, except in a series or two.

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Originally posted by Gary_86:

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Originally posted by Rowman:

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Originally posted by Mister Robby:
What Romwan has no conception of is the hundreds of runs Vaughan takes off the oppo by putting the right bowlers on at the right times, setting the right fields, keeping the guys calm and focussed, and reading the situation as it changes - all of which which Fred is unable to do.

You can delude yourself all you like but the fact is Michael Vaughan didn't take 24 wickets in the 2005 Ashes series.
Vaughan also didn't take 18 wickets as did Simon Jones.
All Vaughan did was average 32 with the bat and hop on Freddies shoulders for a free ride along with Ashley Giles and Geraint Jones.
For goodness sake, the idea was to illustrate what a great performance Freddie put on during the series, not argue with delusional kids who can't accept some of the realities of why England are currently in the position they are in.

Nice of Rowman to confirm Mister Robby's point so perfectly...

Dopey, when England have all 4 fast bowlers in good nick it isn't going to take a genius of a captain to work out how to take wickets.

Eggjactly.

...

Strange how the fast bowlers only ever seem to be in good nick when Vaughan is playing. He's just as lucky as Illingworth and Brearley were in this regard...

To be fair they didn't exactly fire under Vaughan's leadership in Pakistan.

FWIW I believe he is a good captain. However I also feel the captain should be in the team on merit, and in Vaughan's case his batting hasn't been good enough - certainly not enough to displace Cook/Colly/Bell. Take the example of Ponting and Inzi - neither is a tactical genius, but they lead by example with the bat and have been successful.

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Originally posted by Mo-Mo:
To be fair they didn't exactly fire under Vaughan's leadership in Pakistan.

FWIW I believe he is a good captain. However I also feel the captain should be in the team on merit, and in Vaughan's case his batting hasn't been good enough - certainly not enough to displace Cook/Colly/Bell. Take the example of Ponting and Inzi - neither is a tactical genius, but they lead by example with the bat and have been successful.

In his defence Mo-Mo, its very hard to play catch-up in the sub-continent and England were already 1-0 down when Vaughan came into that series.

In regards to the other England players you mentioned - I think Cook will go on to be a better batsman than Vaughan, Bell has his moments but hasn't totally convinced and Collingwood is a much more limited player (though a great trier and fine fielder). Vaughan may well never play a test again because of injuries so it may well be a moot point.

Neither Inzi or Ponting impressed too much with their captaincy in England, but maybe i'm a little biased...

I'm not fully convinced by Collingwood either, but to be fair to him he has proved many people wrong by scoring runs in testing situations. Hard to contemplate dropping him when he has been one of the shining lights in this series (plus as you say, a fine fielder).

I guess my preference is for a team to contain eleven individuals who can all be relied on to contribute in their specialist field (batting/bowling/keeping). As Jay Dello pointed out earlier, MV has been ordinary for sometime and unfortunately has not pressed on since his "purple patch". For that reason I would rather have someone like Shah instead of Vaughan, as I feel he will contribute more with the bat. Strauss could skipper, and although he is not as good as Vaughan in this capacity, I feel he is fairly competent.

As for Inzi/Ponting, I don't think either had a particular good tour of England (both individually and as a team). Neither has the nous of Fleming/Vaughan, but they contribute in an more valuable way (IMO) - leading by example with the bat.

Collingwood is great on slow, flat dead wickets, not great on wickets that 'do a bit'. Very limited. He's very determined thouugh.

Colly's got a better average than Vaughany in both Tests and ODIs. And Collingwood's performance has only been on the rise while it's been flat or downhill for Vaughan ever since that amazing series he had.

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Originally posted by Gary_86:
Strange how the fast bowlers only ever seem to be in good nick when Vaughan is playing. He's just as lucky as Illingworth and Brearley were in this regard...

Does Andrew Flintoff even have Simon Jones with him in Australia?
Isn't Hoggard atleast doing a reasonable job under Freddies Captaincy considering how Pigsy bowled last time he was in Australia?
Are you really so dopey gary that you think it's the Captains fault that Mahmood isn't good enough?
Again, is it Freddies fault that James Anderson has looked out of his depth at Test level?
How many Ashes victories exactly does Michael Vaughan have in Australia?
If Vaughan is such a genius gary, why did England lose in Pakistan?
IMO, if Captain Wonky Knee wasn't good enough to lead England to victory in Pakistan then he certainly wasn't going to make any difference to what happened in Australia , afterall beating Australia at home is the biggest challenge of all.
Would you care to discuss Harmison gary? lol

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Originally posted by Rowman:

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Originally posted by Gary_86:
Strange how the fast bowlers only ever seem to be in good nick when Vaughan is playing. He's just as lucky as Illingworth and Brearley were in this regard...

Does Andrew Flintoff even have Simon Jones with him in Australia?
Isn't Hoggard atleast doing a reasonable job under Freddies Captaincy considering how Pigsy bowled last time he was in Australia?
Are you really so dopey gary that you think it's the Captains fault that Mahmood isn't good enough?
Again, is it Freddies fault that James Anderson has looked out of his depth at Test level?
How many Ashes victories exactly does Michael Vaughan have in Australia?
If Vaughan is such a genius gary, why did England lose in Pakistan?
IMO, if Captain Wonky Knee wasn't good enough to lead England to victory in Pakistan then he certainly wasn't going to make any difference to what happened in Australia , afterall beating Australia at home is the biggest challenge of all.
Would you care to discuss Harmison gary? lol

Ha, completely miss the point of the original post - and just ask a load of random questions to do with nothing and everything.

But if you really want my answers they are:

No, I don't know where Simon Jones is at present. He might be in Australia for all I know, I haven't seen him while i've been over here.

Hoggard has bowled well, though he should have bowled more at Adelaide in the 2nd innings.

Refer to my previous posts on Mahmood.

Anderson should never have been picked - he didn't play any first class cricket all English summer.

0 out of 0, but his Ashes record is 1 out of 1 overall...

The first test was where England lost that series, and Vaughan wasn't playing.

Finally Harmison - woeful preparation for this series, like the rest of the team. Bowled alright in patches in Perth and Melbourne (by which time the Ashes were as good as lost). But to return to the original point, if I may - isn't it strange how Harmison (barring one tour to SA) always seems to bowl well when Vaughan is captain. Vaughan must be very lucky, just like Brearley was lucky that Botham always bowled well when he was captain and how Illingworth was lucky that Snow always bowled well when he was captain...

Like I said before Gary. If Vaughan was incapable of leading England to victory in Pakistan then he was no hope to do it in Australia because beating Australia at home is an even bigger challenge

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Originally posted by Gary_86:
Strange how the fast bowlers only ever seem to be in good nick when Vaughan is playing. He's just as lucky as Illingworth and Brearley were in this regard...

Hoggard and Harmison struggled out here last time as well. Flintoff is clearly underdone, and Mahmood and Anderson have served up pies.

Vaughan is undeniably a good captain, but let's not give he and Simon Jones mythical greek-god status simply because they haven't been playing since the 05 Ashes.

Vaughan wasn't the reason that Jones and Hoggard got the ball to swing around corners, Flintoff was fit and Harmison was on song.

It'd be interesting to see how he'd go with the attack Steve Fleming has at his disposal, or even the one Feltch has with him here at the moment.