Greham Gooch was for a about 5 seasons, but maybe not over his whole career.
If not, I guess you might have to go all the way back to Boycott, but David Gower and the (in my opinion underrated) Greham Thorpe have claims as well.
If Gooch wasn't a great neither was Boycott.. Gooch excelled against the best attack of his time (West Indies). Boycott didn't play against Lillee and Thomson at their best.
Gooch is prbly the closest to greatness.. but I don't think he had that special quality , obviously he had talent but not the outrageous talents of a Sobers , Richards ,Lara ,Tendulkar or Ponting. He was gritty determined had talent but I can't seee any talking about him much 20 years from now.
"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your own opinions and content with your knowledge."
Originally posted by NB: If Gooch wasn't a great neither was Boycott.. Gooch excelled against the best attack of his time (West Indies). Boycott didn't play against Lillee and Thomson at their best.
Doesn't mean he wasn't a great. He didn't play against Lillian Thompson in '75 because he felt he should be captain and retired in a huff when he wasn't appointed.
Still took hundreds off both of them at other stages, scored a mountain of runs in 1970/71 in Australia and scored runs against a better attack in Holding / Roberts / Croft / Garner when he was in his forties.
I can't see how anyone with 8,000 Test runs and 151 FC hundreds can't be considered a great batsman.
Originally posted by Sensiemella101: Gooch is prbly the closest to greatness.. but I don't think he had that special quality , obviously he had talent but not the outrageous talents of a Sobers , Richards ,Lara ,Tendulkar or Ponting. He was gritty determined had talent but I can't seee any talking about him much 20 years from now.
I would say Steve Waugh and Allan Border had that same 'gritty determined' talent rather than exceptional strokeplay and they were certainly great batsmen...
Look Steve Waugh and Allan Border's successes were more due to their abilities to stay in the fight, wear the bowlers out and then counter attack rather than any special ability as stroke makers so their place in the list of greats are disputable where talent is concerned .Most of the players I've mentioned, u just have to see them bat once to know that they are insanely gifted...Only two batsmen of recent vintage who might make it talent wise i.e Michael Vaughn and Pieterson. But as yet they are'nt as consistent enough to be called great
"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your own opinions and content with your knowledge."
Originally posted by Sensiemella101: Look Steve Waugh and Allan Border's successes were more due to their abilities to stay in the fight, wear the bowlers out and then counter attack rather than any special ability as stroke makers so their place in the list of greats are disputable where talent is concerned .
Sounds like Boycott too, not a GREAT strokemaker IMO and I saw him bat often
If we're talking 'talent', and excluding players like Gooch, Boycott, SRW, and Border on that basis, then we should be labelling Gower and Kim Hughes as greats. But we're not.
Originally posted by Sensiemella101: Gooch is prbly the closest to greatness.. but I don't think he had that special quality , obviously he had talent but not the outrageous talents of a Sobers , Richards ,Lara ,Tendulkar or Ponting. He was gritty determined had talent but I can't seee any talking about him much 20 years from now.
Last indisputedly great English batsman,Compton? In terms of results I'd say Barrington but I have a feeling someone will say he was too limited in his shots and scored too slowly. During the last twenty five years or so i'd say Thorpe, Gower and Gooch in that order have come closest to been a "great" though you have to use pretty selective stats to elevate any of them to that level.
Compton is probably the best bet. Personally, I would rate May and Barrington 'great', but it wouldn't be 'undisputed'.
----------------------- 'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
I see a 'great' more by results than by more abstract notions of style or this elusive claim of 'talent'. That's why I mentioned Border and Steve Waugh earlier. Another example whould be Glenn McGrath, with his stiff, mechanical action and emphasis on consistency rather than dynamism no-one would claim he was one of the game's great aesthetic sights in full flow. But for me he is definitely a great.
Maybe this is why I see things differently to some of the other views expressed.
For me, i'm somewhat confused why some people are overlooking Boycott, and going all the way back to Compton, who had a relatively modest away record and average against Australia. Especially when his contemporary Hutton, and successors May and Barrington have stronger claims in my opinion.
Gooch was the best batsman in the world for 3 years, but remove this purple-patch and he averaged 35 for the rest of his 20 year career so its hard to know where to place him.
A bit more on Thorpe, one of my favourite players and definitely another 'substance over style' batsman. Maybe not a great career average, and a few ups and downs. But he had a wonderful touch, could pace an innings beautifully and adjust his game according to conditions. Like Langer, very difficult to dismiss even when the bowler appeared to be on top of him. For sheer, brilliant match winning knocks in a struggling team few can get close to him, and I include Lara and Tendulkar in that. Also the high standard of bowlers and sporting nature of the wickets in the 1990s must be considered when comparing him to batsmen from more run-friendly eras.
Of course it depends what we mean by "great". If we are talking about a batsman who would be in consideration for an AT World XI (ie the truly top echelon of batsmen) then I would say Hutton.
If you are looking at guys who were among the best of the best in their eras (another legitimate definition of great) then I think Gooch (and I would include Boycott before him).
Al State 