Go  |
New |
Find |
Notify |
|
Reply |
|
Admin |
New PM! |
|
I'm confident that I never overrated Athers. :-)
|
| |
|
|
MR, yes I think we did cross wires. You're not someone I normally disagree with  . It's rare to find an opener in any team who'd be acknowledged as "best batsman". For sure, an average of 38 puts him in the very good rather than great class - but as has been said, he faced more quality attacks than are around just now, and did indeed play with a chronic back problem. Fully fit playing today at age 25-30 I think he'd be averaging mid 40's.
** Did you ever have a secret yearning - Dont you know it could come true
Now's the time to set wheels turning - Open up your life for you
If you take life as a crazy gamble - Throw the dice & take your chance
You will see it from a different angle - And you too will join the dance **
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by never say never:
I'm confident that I never overrated Athers. :-)
With or without the earthy pockets?  |
| |
|
|
quote: With or without the earthy pockets?
i not know what you am meaning |
| |
|
|
Oh I get it now.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Pontoon:
I'm not sure what the decline in Ather's average was in say his last 15 tests. But I has it a guess that it is anywhere up to 4 runs?????
Ather's along with Anwar are my openers of the 90s. A man with a text book technique coupled with endless powers of concentration deserves to be considered up there with the best. He isn't a 'G' or a 'g' but he's nonetheless very good.
tya, I am sure his ratio of 50s per innings would have been considerably higher too save for his poor finish to his career.
The decline in his last 15 tests was 0.18. His last 30(from 1998 to 2001), decline of 1.8. But after his first 20 tests, his peak average was 42.12, achieved v India in 1996.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
 Totally got it wrong there! |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Pontoon: Totally got it wrong there!
Hey Pontoon - I got my tickets to "Paul Keating: The Musical" today. |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Gary_86:
I don't think its as simple as that. Stewart was given the regular job as keeper in 1996, at the age of 33. For the next 7 years he was keeper for 66 of the 76 matches he played.
Firstly, I think its reasonable to assume that most batsmen's average would naturally decline between the age of 33-40 compared to 26-33. This goes some way to explaining his lower average as a keeper, as 66 of his 82 matches as keeper were in this period.
Also, Australia were definitely Stewart's 'bogey team'. Of the 51 matches Stewart played as a batsman only 7 were against Australia, (and only half of these as an opener). Meanwhile of the 82 matches he played as a keeper, 26 were against Australia.
I don't think the issue of whether he was w/k or not would affect his troubles against spin. He was never confortable against slow bowling, the problem was more technique - stiff wrists, firm hands, struggled to pick variations. That's why he averaged 24 on the sub-continent from 10 tests and only 31 against Australia that usually had Warne in the side.
For me, Stewart's career is one of some brillaint innings against fine fast bowlers, most notably in the West Indies, but groping hopelessly against spinners like many of his contempories in that 1990s England side.
You're arguing that Stewart's record as keeper is distorted by his playing most games in that role after he turned 35 - even though his average as keeper was better after he turned 35? Setting aside what happened after he turned 35, consider what happened before that: he scored 2653 runs @ 47.37 as a non-keeping opener, against 1626 runs @ 32.52 as wicketkeeper. Am I getting through here? That's a 33% reduction in his total number of runs. Even excluding Australia, it becomes 48.83 v 41.34. As for Australia being his 'bogey' team - he averaged a respectable 38 against us with the gloves off, making a fantastic ton (age 35) at Melbourne in 1998. Compared with an ordinary 29 against us as designated keeper. That's a 25% reduction in average. I'm scratching my head as to how you can try to deny that wicket-keeping and batting down the order had a devastating effect on Stewart's career record.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Wide Wally: quote: But after his first 20 tests, his peak average was 42.12, achieved v India in 1996.
He was averaging 42.39 after the 1st test against Australia in 1997. Michael Atherton - Progressive batting average & aggregate
Bizarre eyesight issue there... thanks Wally.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by JGK: quote: Originally posted by Pontoon: Totally got it wrong there!
Hey Pontoon - I got my tickets to "Paul Keating: The Musical" today.
Damn you. Seething with envy. Let us know how it is. Last production I saw was the "Producers" mid last year, bl00dy awesome too. |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Pontoon: Totally got it wrong there!
His last 15 tests included his match-winning heroics v West Indies and Pakistan in 2000. I believe that calendar year was his best after 1995 - scored 990 runs @ 49.50 against some pretty fine new ball bowlers (Donald, Pollock, Streak, Ambrose, Walsh, Wasim, Waqar). Fine player, better than his average IMHO, though not as good as Stewart. I'd love to get a video of his Jo'burg innings.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
Leo, i'm not arguing that Stewart's batting average was worse as a keeper. But I think you're overating his ability as a batsman, especially as an opener. If you think he would have maintained a 48 average over 12 years
For a start, is it any co-incidence that Stewart's 107 against Aus came when Warne was out injured? Whereas his only regular series as a keeper before the age of 35 was against Warne in his pomp putting a significant dint in his average.
I think Stewart's batting average would have dipped when batting on the sub-continent, or playing against Warne regardless of whether he was keeper. That's my intuition having seen most of Stewart's career for England.
|
| |
|
|
Warne got Stewart 7 times in 12 tests in 1993 and 1997. I suggest to you he was not by any measure the primary cause of Alec's struggles in those series. Further, Stewart was crap at 4 in 1998, then produced as soon as he moved up to open. He was a poor starter against spin, but once set he played the slow bowlers quite well. His centuries against Mushtaq Ahmed emphasise the point.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
During the 96 series against Pakistan- in his five innings he was dismissed by Mushtaq Ahmed five times. In your face Leo.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Gary_86:
Leo, i'm not arguing that Stewart's batting average was worse as a keeper. But I think you're overating his ability as a batsman, especially as an opener. If you think he would have maintained a 48 average over 12 years
I think he would have done. I remember him tearing up W&W in their pomp in 1992. |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Mister Robby: quote: Originally posted by Gary_86:
Leo, i'm not arguing that Stewart's batting average was worse as a keeper. But I think you're overating his ability as a batsman, especially as an opener. If you think he would have maintained a 48 average over 12 years
I think he would have done. I remember him tearing up W&W in their pomp in 1992.
He scored some very good runs in the Carribean as well in 93/94 and 97/98. Still stand my accusation that he was a relative numpty against spin. Wouldn't have been a special middle-order batsman. |
| |
|
|
I would always have batted him as an opener, with Russell there too.
|
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Toga: quote: Originally posted by Mister Robby: quote: Originally posted by Gary_86:
Leo, i'm not arguing that Stewart's batting average was worse as a keeper. But I think you're overating his ability as a batsman, especially as an opener. If you think he would have maintained a 48 average over 12 years
I think he would have done. I remember him tearing up W&W in their pomp in 1992.
He scored some very good runs in the Carribean as well in 93/94 and 97/98. Still stand my accusation that he was a relative numpty against spin. Wouldn't have been a special middle-order batsman.
No. But he was a special opener. And I think most batsmen would be happy to be dismissed 5 times by Mushtaq if they'd already scored 396 runs @ 79.20 against Wasim, Waqar and Mushtaq before it happened. His average of 129.50 opening v Pakistan is phenomenal.
-----------------------
'John and Kevin offered to settle their differences in the ring, but were forced to backflip after it became clear no-one wanted to see either of them in boxer shorts'
|
| |
|
|
But is Prasanna better than Saqlain, Leo? Now that's the question... |
| |
|
|
quote: Originally posted by Leo:
His average of 129.50 opening v Pakistan is phenomenal.
Except that it's actually 81.87.
Victor Trumper - wet track bully
|
| |
|
|
So what's a measly 47 runs?
_____________________________________________
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
|
| |
|
|
Some of the averages Leo has posted recently seem pretty rubbery.
|
| |
|
|
