quote:

Originally posted by Dwayne W II:

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
The only two attacks Pace wise above the English one in world cricket at the moment have got to be Aus, and Pakistan (but with there drug cheats in). Other than that, most are worse than the one we have at the moment.

South Africa with Ntini, Nel, Pollock, Steyn and Kallis. They do struggle on flat tracks but England seem to as well.

Pollock is almost certain to go after the World Cup and is little more than a bog standard military medium pacer nowadays anyway, whilst there are still questions about Steyn, and about Nel's temprament.

I know you cant always blame it but Eng have had no luck either in this series and you need a bit to go your away on a tour

If Giles had pouched Ponting in the 2nd, if Rudi had given one of the 4 stone dead LBW's against Hayden/Symonds in the 4th etc etc

These things could have changed the courses of the games

IMO , once Monty rightly came back and Fred looked even half fit, Eng havent bowled that badly .. just the usual 3 or 4 mighty batting collapses that have lost us this series

quote:

Originally posted by JoeShmoe:
I know you cant always blame it but Eng have had no luck either in this series and you need a bit to go your away on a tour

If Giles had pouched Ponting in the 2nd, if Rudi had given one of the 4 stone dead LBW's against Hayden/Symonds in the 4th etc etc

These things could have changed the courses of the games

IMO , once Monty rightly came back and Fred looked even half fit, Eng havent bowled that badly .. just the usual 3 or 4 mighty batting collapses that have lost us this series

I agree that England have not had much luck with the umpiring in this series:

-Ponting's LBW and glove in the First.
-Pietersen's LBW and the Flintoff no ball likewise.
-Strauss' three triggers in a row.
-the aforesaid LBWs.

These are annoying - but did they really change the results? I'd say not - I'm guessing the margin in the First would have been considerably smaller, but no more than that.

In fact, the overall umpiring hasn't been great - England got away with just as many LBW's in the fourth when, it seemed to me, Rudi Koertzen had had his finger glued to his side.

Whilst I'd agree with all your comments Joe, I would however say that we were comprehensively out played by the Australians - and why?
because they wanted IT much more than we did.
Simple as that.

Citng the odd dropped catch (which was diabolical and possibly match changing, I agree) and blind Jaarpie decisions should not detract from the fact that the Aussies were better overall - enhanced by the fact that England were woefully under cooked - and that Ponting and his ageing clan never took the pressure off England once they gained the upper hand.

Bad selection and poor captaincy added to the enormity of Englands task.

Ponting was unlucky twice in the series with lbw's that looked too high.

collingwood and strauss and cook all survived plumb shouts at the mcg.

kp was out caught behind early at the gabba and not given ect ect.

I think the whole series still will come down to adelaide day 5 when we look back years later.

Sure they had an awful game at brisbane but day 5 adelaide that was one of our best days and surely one of england's darkest.

Looking back now a month or so later i still don't understand what the english plan on day 5 was.

quote:

Originally posted by please:
I think the whole series still will come down to adelaide day 5 when we look back years later.

Sure they had an awful game at brisbane but day 5 adelaide that was one of our best days and surely one of england's darkest.

Looking back now a month or so later i still don't understand what the english plan on day 5 was.

You are most probably right. In a 5 test series losing the first test, is all beit not very helpful, is not the end of the world. But to capitulate so badly, and in doing so be 2-0 down was THE moment.

As for not seeing a plan, thats the whole point there wasn't one. It was a 'lets just play' and see where we get to which wasn't very far in the end.

please -

I Disagree ... for me, Adelaide Day 3 -
Piles' drop off Ponting.
BIG BIG cock up.
Australia 85 - 6 facing 530 plus first dig.
What do you think????

You could detect the wrong thoughts on day 2 when hoggard and hayden talked to the media during that test.

england were well on top yet hoggard was saying they just wanted to show the aussies they could compete and that a draw would do, hayden was saying he felt the aussies could still win.

The best way to lose a test is to start thinking about drawing it, i guess in the wash up the blame belongs to the captain and coach for that.

quote:

Originally posted by please:

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Originally posted by HCC2005:


The point is largely that England have a great pace attack when all four of them are fit and firing;

All 4 of those guys fit and firing at once....

how often has that happened? just the once i guess.

Harmison, Flintoff, Hoggard and Jones have played together for England 16 times, winning 10, drawing 4 and losing 2.

quote:

Originally posted by RedDuster:
please -

I Disagree ... for me, Adelaide Day 3 -
Piles' drop off Ponting.
BIG BIG cock up.
Australia 85 - 6 facing 530 plus first dig.
What do you think????

yeah but drop cathes can't be helped or planned for and blaming them doesn't help fix the problems.

Thankfully the aussies after 05 knew that there was more to the loss than just kp getting dropped a few times at the oval.

Plus i think we would have been 4-85 unless you are sure that would have lead to a hatrick?

And you can still never tell from there, at 80 odd for 5 who would have thought we would make 400 at the mcg.

sorry - 85 for 5 (Ponting) ...
250 needed to avoid the follow on with just Hussey, Clarke and Gilly (out of form) as the two recognized bats left...

I have my doubts - but it's all history now, and served to bin Piles forever - which in itself was a result in my eyes.

As i said though 85-5 at the mcg just our two out of form batsmen in and gilly to come most would have said 190 all out if we are lucky.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedDuster:
Whilst I'd agree with all your comments Joe, I would however say that we were comprehensively out played by the Australians - and why?
because they wanted IT much more than we did.
Simple as that.

Australia have a more even spread of talent Merlin , consequently even if one of our boys does have a bad day at the office we have somebody else who can and will step up and do the job.
England have been unable to maintain the standard which won them the Ashes in 2005 because for that to happen Freddie and Pietersen would have to star in every game.

England are not even close to being the worst bowling attack in the world. They have been up against a batting line up which not only possesses the widest range of stroke play in the world, but also the confidence and the will to execute those. I said before the series that the Aussies will be piling up huge runs and there isn't much that the England bowling will be able to do about it. That does not make them the worst in the world by any means though.

I think back to last summer when we allowed the Sri Lankan tail ender Kulasekera to score a half century against us, then Pakistan racked up some huge totals.

quote:

Originally posted by RedDuster:
please -

I Disagree ... for me, Adelaide Day 3 -
Piles' drop off Ponting.
BIG BIG cock up.
Australia 85 - 6 facing 530 plus first dig.
What do you think????

So you're saying had Monty played instead he would have taken it? This England team is a pretty poor fielding team. Collingwood and Anderson the only good ones off the top of my head. That fact can't be blamed on "luck"

I guess its a combination of things,

Most importantly the loss at Adelaide from an almost invincible position was the main blow - it deflated England and gave Australia a massive psychological boost (I guess this would have happened similarly in 2005 if Kasprowicz glove had evaded Jones and gone for 4 - Australia would have probably been all over England for the rest of the series). You can trace the loss at Adelaide to England employing generally negative tactics compared to the more positive Australian approach.

The batting has looked weak with such a long tail - although the fact that we rarely look like taking 20 wickets means the extra batsman wouldn't make much of a difference. Compared to the military precision of Clark and McGrath England's bowlers except for Hoggard and Flintoff have been scatterguns - Harmison was properly prepared, Anderson, Flintoff and Giles were struggling to return from injury, Mahmood isn't up to scratch at the moment. The way England have bowled Australia are always going to be on top unless one the English bowlers suddenly finds the form of his life.

The non-selection of Read and Panesar was baffling - would liked to have seen Broad and an extra opener in the squad as well - our top order have not performed save Cook in one innings at Perth.

Finally the umpiring decisions - i've tended to notice that the side that is struggling and losing tends to bemoan bad decisions more than the other. That's why Martyn's lbw's and Kaspa's glove were the talking points in '05 and now it's Strauss and his unlucky run and Hayden's super-powers that mean all lbw's against him have to be turned down on principle. Warne today, Symonds and Hayden at the MCG went on to make the most of their extra lives - when an England batsman has had a let off they tend to only get another 20 runs and get out.

Australia have played the better cricket and planned and prepared much more thoroughly - maybe it is true that they wanted it more...

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Watermelon:
Hard to believe really. Apart from Bangladesh and the Windies, I cant think of a pace attack in Test Cricket that is bowling worse.

We are probably the 5th best pace attack in the world at the moment i would say. Not good enough but let's see what the summer series brings.

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Originally posted by County Player:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Watermelon:
Hard to believe really. Apart from Bangladesh and the Windies, I cant think of a pace attack in Test Cricket that is bowling worse.

We are probably the 5th best pace attack in the world at the moment i would say. Not good enough but let's see what the summer series brings.

I think it depends on who turns up on the day.

Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff, Jones AT THEIR BEST is as good a pace attack as anyone has produced in recent years.

How to get Jones and Flintoff fit and Harmy back to his best?

Answers should be put in a SAE and sent to the ECB.

quote:

Originally posted by ten years after:

quote:

Originally posted by County Player:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Watermelon:
Hard to believe really. Apart from Bangladesh and the Windies, I cant think of a pace attack in Test Cricket that is bowling worse.

We are probably the 5th best pace attack in the world at the moment i would say. Not good enough but let's see what the summer series brings.

I think it depends on who turns up on the day.

Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff, Jones AT THEIR BEST is as good a pace attack as anyone has produced in recent years.

How to get Jones and Flintoff fit and Harmy back to his best?

Answers should be put in a SAE and sent to the ECB.

What about you stop clutching at straws for a change and judge the bowlers that have been playing in the English team for the last 18 months on their performance??????

England can't carry on living off the back of the 2005 ashes. The bowlers have been rank for quite a while.

Let's not have anymore celebration at Trafalgar Square. SAme thing happened to English rugby !!!!!!! Went downhill on a rapid scale...

quote:

Originally posted by Rowman:
What about you stop clutching at straws for a change and judge the bowlers that have been playing in the English team for the last 18 months on their performance??????

Look in the Mirror.